Mr. Robert S. Minton
Temporary Restraining Order
Court Transcript 1 of 2

I just heard on irc that the result of the TRO hearing was that Minton was required to stay 10 feet away from the cult, and the cult was required to stay *20* feet away from Minton.

As for the details of this or its enforcability, I have no further details.

Other third-hand reports indicate that the MFC and other onlookers cheered when the judge left the court, but the cult lawyers just looked solemn and silent. - Rob Clark

IN THE CIRCUIT COURT IN AND FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA

CASE NO. 99-7430-CI-8

----------------------------------------X
                                         :
 RICHARD W. HOWD, JR.                    :
                                         :
                      Petitioner,        :
                                         :
 vs.                                     :
                                         :
 ROBERT S. MINTON, JR.                   :
                                         :
                      Respondent.        :
 ----------------------------------------X

         BEFORE:     THE HONORABLE THOMAS PENICK, JR.
                     CIRCUIT COURT JUDGE

         PLACE:      ST. PETERSBURG JUDICIAL BUILDING
                     545 - First Avenue North
                     St. Petersburg, Florida 33701

         DATE:       November 29, 1999

         TIME:       12:00 - 9:00 p.m.

         REPORTED BY: DONNA M. ANDERSON, RPR
                       SIXTH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT
                       NOTARY PUBLIC, STATE OF FLORIDA

     ------------------------------------------

RETURN ON TEMPORARY INJUNCTION FOR PROTECTION AGAINST
               HARASSMENT AND VIOLENCE

     ------------------------------------------
ORIGINAL

                        VOLUME I
                        Pages 1 - 198

           ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES
                   COURT REPORTERS
                     P.O. BOX 35
           CLEARWATER, FLORIDA 34617-0035
                    (727) 443-0992

                A P P E A R A N C E S

Attorney for Petitioner:

Paul B. Johnson, Esquire
112 S. Magnolia Avenue
Tampa, Florida 33606

Michael Hertzberg, Esquire
740 Broadway
FIfth Floor
New York, New York 10003

Attorney for Respondent:

Denis Devlaming, Esquire
Douglas Devlaming, Esquire
1101 Turner Street
Clearwater, Florida 34616-4105

Bruce G. Howie, Esquire
5720 Central Avenue
St. Petersburg, Florida 33707

        page 3

 1            P R O C E E D I N G S
 2      THE COURT:  We're here In Re the matter
 3 of Richard W. Howd, Jr. vs. Robert
 4 S. Minton, Jr.  Case is 99-7430-CI-O08.  And
 5 this is a return on the temporary injunction
 6 for protection against harassment and
 7 violence.  Are we ready to proceed?
 8      MR. JOHNSON:  Your Honor, there's a
 9 couple of housekeeping matters I'd like to
10 present to Your Honor.
11      THE COURT:  Okay, well hold on just a
12 moment.  Mr. Devlaming, other than
13 housekeeping your client is ready?
14      MR. DENIS DEVLAMING:  We're ready.
15      MR. DOUGLAS DEVLAMING:  Yes, Your
16 Honor.
17      THE COURT:  Okay.  Yes, housekeeping.
18      MR. JOHNSON:  Your Honor, last time, as
19 you recall, we both announced we had our
20 First Amendment specialists, and I
21 introduced mine as Mr. Mike Hertzberg from
22 New York.  And we filed a formal motion pro
23 hoc viche for him to appear, and also a
24 notice of appearance.  I've shown counsel a
25 copy of it and they have no objection.

        page 4

 1      THE COURT:  Everything appears to be in
 2 order?
 3      MR. DENIS DEVLAMING:  We have no
 4 objection.
 5      THE COURT:  Okay, fine.  Bring it up
 6 here.
 7      MR. JOHNSON:  One other housekeeping
 8 matter.  Counsel has just had an agreement.
 9 We learned on the Internet that there were a
10 number of photographs taken at the last
11 hearing of myself, my co-counsel, and my
12 client, and a narrative of what went on was
13 taken.  Many of the photographs were taken
14 from counsel table.
15      I discovered it recently and I called
16 it to Mr. Devlaming's attention and he has
17 instructed his client that under the rules
18 photographs are not to be taken.
19      THE COURT:  Photographs from -- wait a
20 minute.  What's this about?  I didn't see
21 any camera by the defendant at the time.
22      MR. DENIS DEVLAMING:  It was before the
23 Court took the bench.  Court was not in
24 session when the photographs were taken.
25 And I told Mr. Johnson that would not occur

        page 5

 1 again.  There were some taken this morning
 2 before the Court took the bench.  The person
 3 that took them, I said no more photographs,
 4 and she indicated that the bailiff had said
 5 it's okay before the Court takes the bench.
 6 But we're not going to have anymore taken at
 7 all.
 8      MR. JOHNSON:  I want to make sure
 9 there's no recordings being made that might
10 be made at counsel bench.
11      THE COURT:  I understand what you all
12 are saying.  But when you all are talking
13 about cameras and you're talking about
14 recordings, I understand by parties and by
15 people other than the media.  I want this
16 clear that I'm not excluding or doing
17 anything with the media as far as that's
18 concerned at this time, and this is an open
19 court proceeding, and I'm not going to go
20 back and revisit the St. Petersburg Times
21 vs. Penick, but that is landmark law on open
22 courts.
23      MR. JOHNSON:  I have no objection to
24 that.
25      THE COURT:  I mean, you only have to

        page 6

 1 sue me once.  It's an open court.  All
 2 right?  I mean, they may be taking things
 3 down and there may be cameras running.  But
 4 the media, yes.  And when I'm saying
 5 "media", all the media, you all have cards
 6 or something to identify yourselves.  If you
 7 don't, give one real quick in case something
 8 comes up and I have to start checking, okay?
 9      But other than that:  They, yes.  Other
10 people, no.  Unless you talk to the
11 attorneys.
12      MR. DENIS DEVLAMING:  Right.
13      THE COURT:  Okay.  That's what I just
14 want to be sure.  Okay.  Oh, I tell you
15 what.  Mr. Johnson, do I have an order or
16 something I can sign?  Or let the record be
17 clear that I have granted his appearance pro
18 hoc v. and that an order will be
19 forthcoming.  We'll nunc pro tunc it today
20 to cover any arguments he should make today.
21      MR. JOHNSON:  I will submit it
22 tomorrow, Your Honor.
23      THE COURT:  Any objection.
24      MR. DENIS DEVLAMING:  No.
25      MR. JOHNSON:  May I also suggest that

        page page 7

 1 it may be helpful to the Court if we have an
 2 opening statement by each side as to what
 3 the boundaries and parameters of this
 4 hearing is and also what we hope to show
 5 during the hearing.
 6      THE COURT:  Okay.  Well, procedural
 7 point.  This is a return hearing on their
 8 injunction.
 9      MR. JOHNSON:  Yes, sir.
10      THE COURT:  Okay.  Who has the burden?
11      MR. JOHNSON:  I think I have the
12 burden.
13      THE COURT:  All right.  And are you
14 asking to -- basically, where I'm going with
15 this, Mr. Johnson, is this is a on a
16 temporary.  Are you asking for a permanent?
17      MR. JOHNSON:  Yes, sir.  We ask for
18 that in our petition.  And I understood
19 that's the purpose for this hearing today.
20      THE COURT:  Okay.  And Mr. Devlaming or
21 the Devlamings, you all have had adequate
22 notice?
23      MR. DENIS DEVLAMING:  We've had
24 adequate notice.  Judge, you should know as
25 Mr. Howie announced, we have filed, and I

        page 8

 1 don't know if the Court has had an
 2 opportunity --
 3      THE COURT:  I got a copy.
 4      MR. DENIS DEVLAMING:  All right, to
 5 modify the injunction and the relief sought
 6 therein.
 7      THE COURT:  Now hold on, Mr. Devlaming.
 8 I guess it's back on my desk, but I have
 9 received a document from Mr. Howie.  I got
10 it last week.  Okay?  I'm ready to proceed.
11      MR. JOHNSON:  Your Honor, please I'd
12 like to request that Mr. Hertzberg briefly
13 address the Court concerning the parameters
14 of this case.
15      THE COURT:  All right.  He may.
16      MR. HERTZBERG:  Your Honor, I've had
17 occasion to review the -- and study the
18 pleading that was filed on the eve of
19 Thanksgiving by opposing counsel, which Your
20 Honor has stated that you have also had an
21 opportunity to look at, and in particular
22 their motion to modify the injunction that
23 we have to now.  And I think I have some
24 good news to report to the Court, because I
25 think everybody's interested in keeping this

        page page 9

 1 proceeding on and narrow a path as required.
 2 And that there is actually less in disputed
 3 as I read opposing counsel's papers that may
 4 at first blush appear about what the
 5 parameters of what a permanent injunction
 6 should be.
 7      And in particular I want to direct Your
 8 Honor's attention to Page 8 of the papers
 9 that were filed on behalf of the Respondent,
10 Mr. Minton.  Paragraph No. 2, they seek
11 modification of several aspects of the
12 temporary injunction previously ordered by
13 Your Honor.  And they start laying it out at
14 the is he bottom of Page 7 following the
15 wherefor clause and moving on it Page 8.
16      And the most significant thing in my
17 view, and I think there is a common ground
18 here to keep these proceedings concise, is
19 that they are willing to agree that there
20 should be a permanent injunction with
21 language should be effective they put in
22 Paragraph 2, which is in sum that the
23 Respondent, Mr. Minton will not have
24 intentional, willful, physical contact with
25 the Petitioner, that's Mr. Howd, the staff

        page 10

 1 and parishioners of the Church of
 2 Scientology and the Respondent, again,
 3 Mr. Minton, not harass or commit acts of
 4 violence against these same persons.
 5      We feel that that is a proper -- the
 6 precise language would have to be worded,
 7 worked out in the final order.  But we're
 8 not going to oppose that kind of relief.
 9 That's part of what we want.
10      They also ask for the recision of the
11 150-yard provision.  That is going to be a
12 contested issue here.  We believe that when
13 the proof is adduced in this case, which
14 will be what was previously before this
15 Court when the preliminary injunction was
16 ordered, and we're going to amplify on that
17 today, we feel that this Court will have an
18 ample basis to conclude that Mr. Minton has
19 made threats on the Internet and elsewhere
20 against church of Scientology's ecclesiastic
21 leaders, against parishioners of the church;
22 that the threats have to be viewed extremely
23 seriously by this Court as they would be by
24 anybody including the people who they're
25 directed against; and that, in fact,

        page page 11

 1 Mr. Minton has on two occasions, most
 2 recently the one in Clearwater which brings
 3 us here today, been arrested and charged
 4 with assault.
 5      And therefore he has a proclivity for
 6 violence.  And in the general context, and
 7 I'm not going to -- obviously you're going
 8 to hear the evidence and I'm not going into
 9 all the evidence now.  But suffice it to say
10 that we believe that we will be able to
11 argue to Your Honor at the conclusion of
12 these proceedings that our evidence
13 justifies keeping the physical distance
14 limitation that applies to Mr. Minton
15 currently in place.
16      They want to get rid of it the
17 completely, as I read their papers.  If they
18 don't, if they think that there's some
19 alternative distance that can be maintained
20 that is satisfactory, they haven't indicated
21 so in their papers.  So I'm assuming at the
22 moment that they're talking about taking it
23 away completely.  We're opposed to that, and
24 that will be a contested issue.
25      They also ask that the language that's

        page 12

 1 in the preliminary injunction at Paragraph 2
 2 of the preliminary injunction now that
 3 Mr. Minton is ordered to stay away, that's
 4 the phrase in the injunction, from the
 5 church, members from the Petitioner,
 6 Mr. Howd and others, that that language be
 7 rescinded because they say it's too vague
 8 and too difficult, the stay away part.
 9      If we get the language that they have
10 conceded and acknowledged that they can live
11 with in the Paragraph 2 of their
12 presentation, and if we get a physical
13 limitation as well, which they're trying to
14 eliminate, we will have -- we will agree
15 that the stay away language, which is
16 presently in Paragraph 2, can be dispensed
17 with, because we think that the other two
18 provision will serve the same purpose and
19 will be more precisely worded and nobody
20 would have a problem with that.
21      Lastly, Your Honor, I just wanted to
22 forecast, although I think that when
23 Mr. Johnson is putting the evidence on,
24 maybe the actual disputes will be more
25 sharpened and will be dealt with in an

        page page 13

 1 evidentiary capacity by Your Honor at the
 2 time, but I would like to indicate that
 3 their papers forecast that they want to
 4 present evidence of events that purportedly
 5 happened in California, I think, when
 6 Mr. Minton wasn't even present.  They want
 7 to talk about how he has been somehow would
 8 be impeded from using a property that they
 9 now say -- they say he has contracted to
10 purchase property in Clearwater.
11      Now Your Honor will recall that the
12 last time we were in Court, the
13 plaintiff's -- Respondent's counsel made a
14 categorical representation to this Court
15 that there were going to be problems here
16 with the injunction because Mr. Minton had
17 purchased a property in Downtown Clearwater,
18 which he was going to use for certain
19 purposes.  I believe they are no longer
20 maintaining that that was an accurate
21 statement at the time that it was made.
22 They'll clarify.  But certainly they're
23 certainly not saying that in their papers
24 anymore.
25      And I would suggest to Your Honor that

        page 14

 1 this can be dealt with if and when it comes
 2 up in an evidentiary sense.  I think that
 3 it's a red herring on several levels.  First
 4 of all, if he has not purchased the
 5 property, then it's not ripe for this Court
 6 even to take that into consideration.  If
 7 and when someday that that transaction
 8 occurs, perhaps Mr. Minton could make an
 9 application to address that at that time.
10 But I don't think it need deter us now.
11      And in any event, notwithstanding
12 whatever status that purchase or
13 non-purchase has at the moment, again to
14 reiterate, we are in agreement with the
15 alternative language that they have proposed
16 on paragraph -- numbered Paragraph 2, Page 8
17 of their filing.
18      Lastly, Your Honor, before I sit down,
19 they apparently are seeking in the -- I
20 guess in the guise of their motion to
21 modify, they also out of the blue now they
22 say they want some injunctive relief.  And
23 they want it in a very broad sense against
24 all Scientologists out there.  I would
25 suggest to Your Honor procedurally that's

        page page 15

 1 not the issue before the Court today.  We
 2 are here today on Mr. Howd, the Petitioner's
 3 petition.  That's what was set on the
 4 calendar today.  We believe that's the only
 5 issue that should be addressed by this
 6 Court.  Mr. Howd is the Petitioner.  We
 7 should not lose sight of that.  The acts
 8 that you hear are threats directed
 9 against -- an incident in which Mr. Howd
10 ended up being taken to the hospital.  There
11 was an arrest that ensued.
12      I would suggest to the Court that if we
13 get into some kind of counter-application
14 for a temporary restraining order or other
15 relief by the other side we will multiply
16 these proceedings infinitely and we will
17 complicate them infinitely, that the
18 straight narrow issue, and the only
19 permissible one, procedurally and otherwise
20 before this case (sic) today, is our
21 original petition.  Thank you, Your Honor.
22      MR. HOWIE:  May I proceed, sir?
23      THE COURT:  Yes, you may.
24      MR. HOWIE:  Concerning our motion for
25 modification of the injunction, the Court is

        page 16

 1 well aware of the premises on which this
 2 injunction was granted.  We see two issues
 3 here.  The first issue is Mr. Howd and his
 4 ability to get the injunction.  And the
 5 second issue is the First Amendment rights
 6 of Mr. Minton, the Respondent.  We want the
 7 Court -- we ask the Court to take a
 8 balancing approach on the interests that are
 9 involved here.  That goes to the very
10 essence of the equitable nature of the
11 injunction.
12      One of the things the Court needs to be
13 concerned about is the public interest in
14 knowing about the issues that are connected
15 with the Respondent's efforts to make his
16 own position known to the public.
17 Mr. Minton wishes to reserve his First
18 Amendment rights, his right to use a
19 traditional public forum, the sidewalks of
20 the city of Clearwater, in order to make his
21 position public in an effective manner, in a
22 manner that allows the public in turn to
23 receive that message.
24      We need, of course, to be concerned
25 about balancing of rights any time the Court

        page page 17

 1 does equity in these situations.  And that
 2 is the basis of our second request, which is
 3 an effort to issue an order from this Court
 4 that deals not merely in a patchwork fashion
 5 with the issue that arose on October 31, but
 6 to avoid the very multiplicity of litigation
 7 that Mr. Hertzberg just spoke of so that
 8 everyone knows what the situation is and how
 9 the situation can be handled by the Court if
10 the problem arises.
11      Mr. Hertzberg indicated that this was
12 Mr. Howd's petition.  But I would submit to
13 the Court that Mr. Howd appears to be acting
14 on behalf of the Church of Scientology.  We
15 don't really take issue with that.  And the
16 reason we don't take issue with that is
17 because it allows us to present the larger
18 picture of what this cases is about.  It is
19 not just Mr. Minton and Mr. Howd, it is
20 Mr. Minton and his position in the Church of
21 Scientology, their position and their rights
22 under the First Amendment as well.  And it's
23 that balancing of interests that we're
24 trying to effect.
25      THE COURT:  Mr. Howie, I want to be

        page 18

 1 sure I understand something.  I apologize
 2 for interrupting you, but you touched on
 3 something that got my attention, and I
 4 thought we needed to address it.  Do I
 5 understand you correctly that you are
 6 recognizing, then, that this is not
 7 Richard W. Howd, H-O-W-D, Jr. as an
 8 individual as much as you're talking about
 9 the Church of Scientology or both?
10      MR. HOWIE:  Let me put it this way,
11 Your Honor, to answer your question.
12      THE COURT:  Because this takes on a
13 different perspective if this is just two
14 individuals.
15      MR. HOWIE:  That's just it.  We don't
16 think that is case about two individuals.  I
17 think Mr. Howd, in the way he formulated his
18 petition, made that clear.  Otherwise,
19 Mr. Howd would not be asking the Court to
20 enjoin Mr. Minton from the 17 locations of
21 Downtown Clearwater where he does not aver
22 any kind of property interest in those 17
23 locations.
24      THE COURT:  Okay.  Well that's what I
25 wanted to be sure up front.  Okay.

        page page 19

 1      MR. HOWIE:  And we are setting aside
 2 any of the normal objections we would have
 3 concerning Mr. Howd's legal standing to ask
 4 the Court to keep an injunction.  It is
 5 clear what this case is about from the very
 6 nature of his temporary injunction request.
 7      THE COURT:  Okay.  Now you are then
 8 basically telling me that you recognize that
 9 Mr. Howd is an agent of the church, or at
10 least they're one in the same?
11      MR. HOWIE:  For purposes of our own
12 request for relief, yes.
13      THE COURT:  All right.
14      MR. HOWIE:  For that limited purpose.
15 Otherwise, we could just go forward
16 attacking the injunction on the basis of the
17 elements of the injunction.
18      THE COURT:  Okay.  Well that's what I
19 wanted to be sure of here is what we had.
20      MR. HOWIE:  Concerning both his
21 standing, his right to a remedy at law, the
22 irreparable injury that he's alleging and so
23 on.  We are setting those considerations
24 aside so that the Court can forge an order
25 that will address the entire situation and

        page 20

 1 not one single incident that occurred on
 2 October 31.
 3      THE COURT:  Okay.
 4      MR. HOWIE:  Now Mr. Howd in his
 5 petition alleges these events on October 31
 6 and alleges that he was placed in fear as a
 7 result.
 8      THE COURT:  Just a moment.  Hold it
 9 right there.  Mr. Bailiff?  No beepers, no
10 cell phones in this courtroom.  Would you
11 take that one into possession please and
12 hold it until the end of this hearing?
13      THE BAILIFF:  Yes, Your Honor.
14      THE COURT:  Let me make this real clear
15 right now.  No beepers, no cell phones.  Get
16 it back at the end of the hearing.  You may
17 proceed, sir.
18      MR. HOWIE:  Thank you, Your Honor.
19 Mr. Howd in his petition indicates that he
20 was placed in fear or fears harm from the
21 Respondent.  And that's the grounds for his
22 injunction.  I would simply point out that
23 in the course of this proceeding we are
24 prepared to present evidence to the Court
25 that, in fact, Mr. Howd was well aware of

        page 21

 1 those facts that he avers in his petition
 2 prior to this confrontation on October 31.
 3 He was aware of prior incidents and he was
 4 aware of certain postings on the Internet by
 5 the Respondent.  And yet he behaved in a
 6 fashion that we will present evidence of
 7 towards the Respondent by placing himself in
 8 direct physical proximity to the Respondent
 9 even at times barring the Respondent's way
10 on the night in question.
11      Mr. Hertzberg questioned the relevancy
12 of this information and evidence.  In fact,
13 we contend that it's highly relevant to
14 demonstrate to the Court what exactly is
15 going on, what exactly the tactics were that
16 were exercised by Mr. Howd on the night in
17 question to show the Court that this is an
18 ongoing pattern of behavior and tactics by
19 members of the Church of Scientology as a
20 means of barring Mr. Minton from placarding
21 or from picketing certain locations.
22      This goes to the very nature of the
23 injunction since it concerns their
24 foreknowledge concerning his activities and
25 their own responsibility and contribution to

        page 22

 1 the actions that they complain of.  It would
 2 also assist the Court in understanding
 3 better how to create an injunction in this
 4 case that will work.
 5      Concerning the injunctive order of the
 6 Court, keeping the Respondent at least 150
 7 yards from all of the designated location,
 8 we understand that this will be contended.
 9 However, we plan to present both evidence
10 and legal argument that such a distance
11 unduly burdens Mr. Minton's right to the
12 exercise of free speech.  And we would cite
13 two cases, including U.S. Supreme Court
14 cases where, in fact, such a distance or
15 even a lesser distance was struck down as
16 unduly burdensome in the exercise of free
17 speech.  The Court may already be aware of
18 such cases involving protesters at women's
19 clinics.
20      Setting aside any concern about the
21 failure to plead irreparable harm, we would
22 also point out our concern that this
23 injunction is being used as a means to
24 prevent future alleged criminal conduct or
25 unlawful conduct.  This is not exactly the

        page 23

 1 proper application of an equitable remedy
 2 such as injunction.  We would be prepared to
 3 argue that, in fact, they are attempting to
 4 enjoin what they call -- what could be
 5 called future criminal behavior, which is
 6 not, in fact, the function of an injunction.
 7      In order to understand this case fully
 8 we need to be able to present the Court with
 9 certain videotapes concerning similar
10 confrontations as well as this confrontation
11 so the Court will understand the pattern and
12 what needs to be addressed in the injunction
13 order.  This is why we are asking the Court
14 to modify the injunction.  First, to
15 eliminate the 150-yard restriction, which
16 again, is unduly burdensome of his First
17 Amendment rights, and to modify the
18 temporary injunction as Mr. Hertzberg
19 addressed, avoid any intentional or willful
20 physical contact between the Respondent and
21 the Petitioner, but at the same time to
22 enjoin members of the Church of Scientology,
23 including Mr. Howd, but not limited to
24 Mr. Howd, from placing themselves in such a
25 way as to be a physical bar to his progress

        page 24

 1 when is attempting to picket these locations
 2 and not to harass or commit acts of violence
 3 against him, just as he is not to
 4 commit -- harass or commit acts of violence
 5 against them.
 6      It is my understanding that the
 7 Petitioner does not want the Court to
 8 proceed to what amounts to our own request
 9 for injunctive relief.  I have two responses
10 to that.  First, it's really a matter of
11 doing equity in this case and balancing
12 interests:  The First Amendment interests of
13 both the Church of Scientology and
14 Mr. Minton.  And in order to effect that
15 balance, if Mr. Howd comes in here on behalf
16 of the Church of Scientology, necessarily
17 certain restrictions must apply to their
18 behavior so that Mr. Minton can comply with
19 an order of this Court.
20      Second, on a more procedural note, the
21 Petitioner is concerned that we are asking
22 for an injunction without having presented
23 the Court with an affidavit.  Rule 1.610,
24 although it speaks of affidavits, does not
25 necessarily require affidavits where, in

        page 25

 1 fact, we are in a position to present
 2 evidence and testimony pertaining to our own
 3 request.  This evidence and information
 4 would not come as a surprise to Petitioner
 5 or his counsel, and we ask the Court for the
 6 opportunity to present such evidence today
 7 so that, again, the Court is fully advised
 8 on all the premises and can issue an order
 9 which does equity in this case.
10      THE COURT:  Thank you.
11      MR. HERTZBERG:  Your Honor, since we
12 have the burden of going forward, may I just
13 very briefly respond?  On the issue of First
14 Amendment protection, for protection of
15 Mr. Minton's purported First Amendment
16 activities clearly, and I've not made the
17 full argument about the law because I assume
18 Your Honor would want to hear that at the
19 end after the evidences is presented.
20      THE COURT:  Yes, sir.
21      MR. HERTZBERG:  So I will only note in
22 passing that assaulting people is not a
23 First Amendment protected activity.  And
24 making threats, the United States Supreme
25 Court has said, making the kind of threats

        page 26

 1 that we will prove have been made on the
 2 Internet is not First Amendment protected
 3 activity.  So I just want to, for the
 4 moment, make sure that we are
 5 focusing -- we're not blanketing or
 6 counsel's not suggesting that all of
 7 Mr. Minton's activities are protected by the
 8 First Amendment.  Because, Your Honor, will
 9 have ample opportunity to see that the kind
10 of activities which he's engaged in which
11 culminated on the assault on the Petitioner
12 are not protected in any fashion by the
13 First Amendment.
14      As far as burdening Mr. Minton in his
15 efforts to get his message out, I suggest to
16 Your Honor that if we have a final
17 injunction which incorporates the language
18 that the opposing side says they're willing
19 to agree to and with the proviso that there
20 be a physical delimitation, it will not
21 burden any lawful -- future lawful protests
22 or picketing that Mr. Minton may want to
23 engage in, assuming he doesn't hit anybody
24 else.  But it will not burden him.  He's
25 very adept at giving media interviews, being

        page 27

 1 on television, talking to the Press.  And he
 2 can hold his signs and chant what he wants
 3 to chant, but we would maintain at a
 4 distance.
 5      And in the cases that we will cite at
 6 the conclusion of this proceeding you will
 7 see that the Courts, including at my learned
 8 adversary, has mentioned that the courts
 9 find that they can draw the line and prevent
10 the kind of violence that has already
11 occurred by having a physical barrier, a
12 physical delimitation.  And we're not
13 talking about banning, by the way, anybody
14 else; we're only talking about Mr. Minton.
15      There are plenty of people that also
16 come, that may want to come, and they may it
17 please the to talk, and they may want to say
18 what they're entitled to say under the First
19 Amendment, and they're not implicated in
20 this proceeding at all.  We're talking about
21 one individual whom we maintain has
22 forfeited his right for the moment to engage
23 on the same level of First Amendment
24 activities as others because of the threats
25 and because of the violence.

        page 28

 1      Now on this issue about whether other
 2 Scientologists besides the Petitioner can be
 3 protected, the issue, Your Honor, is a very
 4 straightforward one.  This is, and I meant
 5 it, this is Mr. Howd's petition.  He is the
 6 Petitioner.  But Your Honor, as the judicial
 7 officer here, is entitled to protect all
 8 Scientologists.  Because what good would it
 9 do if the protection were only limited to
10 Mr. Howd in this instance and the next time
11 Mr. Minton decided to assault someone else?
12 Then we'd be back here and you'd issue an
13 order that he has to stay a distance away
14 from -- and not assault the other person.  I
15 mean -- Your Honor, I think, understands --
16      THE COURT:  Mr. Hertzberg, that's what
17 I was making reference to earlier.  This
18 could go on ad infinitum.
19      MR. HERTZBERG:  Sure.
20      THE COURT:  And I think --
21      MR. HERTZBERG:  Sure.  And the threats,
22 by the way, the Internet threats, were made
23 against others.  They're general.  So
24 Mr. Howd does not come here as an agent.
25 He's not an agent here.  He's not legally

        page 29

 1 binding anybody in the church.  He comes on
 2 his own.  But Your Honor will find, I
 3 believe on the evidence, and we'll revisit
 4 it at the conclusion, that there's a
 5 significant governmental interest which Your
 6 Honor can effectuate through permanent
 7 relief that will be served by keeping
 8 certain restrictions on Mr. Minton, some of
 9 which already are not contested and one of
10 which really is.
11      And lastly, on the -- and I will sit
12 down, the comments by Mr. Howie about their
13 need to be forward.  Your Honor, there has
14 been no allegation and they don't make one
15 in their papers that any Scientologists,
16 much less the Petitioner, ever hit
17 Mr. Minton.  No Scientologist has ever been
18 arrested in connection with any events
19 surrounding Mr. Minton.
20      And I would submit to Your Honor that
21 this is -- leaving aside the procedural
22 irregularity of their attempt to modify the
23 injunction by bringing a whole new
24 counter-injunction proceeding within this
25 proceeding, and leaving aside the extreme

        page 30

 1 complications that that would cause in terms
 2 of evidentiary rulings and the length of
 3 these proceedings and perhaps other counsel
 4 having to come in to represent others who
 5 would be bound by the proposed
 6 counter-injunction that they're suggesting,
 7 I would suggest to Your Honor the record is
 8 inadequate.
 9      They don't say Mr. Howd hit Mr. Minton
10 and they don't, in fact, say any
11 Scientologists has ever done it.  And I
12 would submit to Your Honor that we take this
13 one step at a time, and the one step that we
14 need it take now, and I know Mr. Johnson is
15 itching to get ready with the presentation,
16 is what the terms of the permanent
17 injunction are that the Petitioner is able
18 to receive as leave for this Court because
19 of the actions of this gentleman.  Thank
20 you.
21      THE COURT:  Ready to proceed?
22      MR. DENIS DEVLAMING:  Yes, sir.
23      MR. JOHNSON:  Yes, sir.  Your Honor,
24 Petitioner would like to invoke the --
25      THE COURT:  Rule?  Invoke the rule?

        page 31

 1      MR. JOHNSON:  -- rule in this case.
 2      THE COURT:  All right.  All of the
 3 witnesses for either side other than the
 4 parties, anybody that's going to be a
 5 perspective witness, would you come forward?
 6 I'll swear you in at this time, please.  If
 7 you all would just sort of line up across
 8 here and I'll swear you all in.
 9 WHEREUPON, ALL PERSPECTIVE WITNESSES WERE PLACED
10                UNDER OATH.)
11      THE COURT:  All right.  Now ladies and
12 gentlemen put your hands down.  I'm going to
13 ask you to wait outside until you're called
14 in to testify.  And while you're waiting
15 outside, please do not discuss this case or
16 anything to do with this case among
17 yourselves or with anybody else.  You can
18 talk about anything else.  That's fine.  But
19 just not this particular case.
20      Somebody's been in here, when they go
21 back outside, don't ask them what they were
22 asked or anything like.  After this is over
23 then you, of course, are free to talk to
24 anybody.  And let me caution if you, please.
25 If you violate this there's a good chance

        page 32

 1 any testimony you've given would not be
 2 allowed to received or any testimony that
 3 you're about to give would not be received
 4 or any testimony you give would be stricken.
 5 And also please, there is a possibility of
 6 contempt of court if this is violated.  Does
 7 anybody have any questions about what I said
 8 now, what I'm asking you to do?  Everybody
 9 think you can do that?
10      All right.  We'll call you when we're
11 ready for you, if y'all wait outside,
12 please.  There's some waiting rooms over
13 here.  They're all around places.  Thank
14 you.
15      All right.  Are we ready?
16      MR. JOHNSON:  Yes, Your Honor, I'd like
17 to call as my first witness Petitioner,
18 Richard Howd.
19      THE COURT:  All right.  If you'd come
20 forward.  Madam Clerk will swear him in.
21 WHEREUPON,
22                RICHARD HOWD,
23 WAS ADDUCED AS A WITNESS HEREIN AND AFTER BEING DULY
24 SWORN ON OATH WAS EXAMINED AND TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS:
25 MR. JOHNSON:  Your Honor, in connection

        page 33

 1 with his testimony we have a tape and a
 2 video that he will have to refer to in order
 3 to complete his testimony.  And I don't know
 4 quite how Your Honor suggests we do this.
 5 This is a videotape furnished to counsel and
 6 we have a machine here to demonstrate it.
 7      MR. DENIS DEVLAMING:  Mr. Johnson, it's
 8 up to you.  Doesn't make any difference to
 9 me.
10      THE COURT:  Well let me come at it this
11 way.  You all may move at will so you can
12 see.  I don't know if he has the control or
13 if this gentleman's going to control it.
14      MR. JOHNSON:  This gentleman, Your
15 Honor.
16      THE COURT:  Okay.  And that's fine with
17 me.  Like I said, counsel, you can move at
18 will.  Everybody work it out.  Try not to
19 block anybody or anything like that.  In
20 fact, if you want, we can push that back
21 even further back that way and cock it over
22 a little bit.  Its still kind of at a wicked
23 angle facing me.  And Mr. Howd, can you see
24 the screen from where you are?
25      THE WITNESS:  Yes.

        page 34

 1      MR. JOHNSON:  Your Honor, I'd like
 2 marked as Exhibit 1 this videotape, which is
 3 taken from the security camera outside Fort
 4 Harrison and will be identified by Mr. Howd.
 5      THE COURT:  All right.  Have you put a
 6 sticker on it?
 7      THE CLERK:  No, Judge Your Honor, I
 8 haven't received it.
 9      THE COURT:  Please, let's -- you keep
10 track of it for me.
11      THE CLERK:  I'll take care of it.
12      THE COURT:  Okay.
13             DIRECT EXAMINATION
14      BY MR. JOHNSON:
15           Q    Please state your name and what is your
16      connection with the Church of Scientology, if any?
17           A    My name is Richard Howd, and I work with
18      the Office of Special Affairs where I coordinate and
19      liaise with the --
20      THE COURT:  Can everybody hear him all
21 right?  Mr. Bailiff, check that volume on
22 the speaker.  Is it on?
23      THE BAILIFF:  Yes Your Honor.
24      MR. JOHNSON:  I'm having trouble
25 hearing him from here, Judge.

        page 35

 1      THE COURT:  Mr. Howd, do me a favor.
 2 See if that on/off switch -- there's an
 3 on/off switch see if it's on.  There we go.
 4 Now let's proceed.
 5      BY MR. JOHNSON:
 6           Q    Mr. Howd, what connection do you have with
 7      security of the church and the parishioners and the
 8      staff?
 9           A    I liaise with security in that I am
10      responsible for ensuring anybody from outs --
11      external to the church who could pose a threat to the
12      church when they come, that I alert security and make
13      sure they know who these people are, what they're
14      capable of, things like that.
15           Q    On the evening of October 31st this year
16      were you doing anything in connection with your
17      assignment to liaise with security?
18           A    Yes, sir, I was.
19           Q    Please tell the Court what that was.
20           A    I was -- we found out that Mr. Minton flew
21      into Clearwater and was picketing in front The Fort
22      Harrison.  I took my video camera and met with him
23      out front of The Fort Harrison to videotape his
24      actions and activities.
25           Q    Why were you videotaping his activities?

        page 36

 1           A    Well, on advice of counsel, Mr. Shaw,
 2      Andrew Shaw, we were videotaping his activities to
 3      document anything that he was doing, any threats he
 4      was making or any possible physical threats he could
 5      make against Scientology staff or parishioners.
 6           Q    Was your purpose also to prohibit him from
 7      committing any violence by being videotaped?
 8           A    Yes, sir.
 9           Q    So --
10           A    It was -- I'm sorry.  It was to ensure that
11      he knew that he was being videotaped.
12           Q    But you were doing it pubicly so he could
13      see you there?
14           A    Yes, sir.
15           Q    All right.  So tell me and tell the Court
16      what happened.
17           A    That evening when Mr. Minton showed up I
18      immediately started videotaping him.
19           Q    About what time was that?
20           A    I would say that was probably 9:30.
21      Between 9:30 to 10:00.
22           Q    All right.
23           A    Maybe a little later.
24           Q    All right.
25           A    And he was -- there was Mr. Minton, there

        page 37

 1      was Miss Brooks, and they were walking up and down
 2      the front of the Fort Harrison at the main entrance,
 3      and I was videotaping Mr. Minton as he walked, and as
 4      he was yelling statements and things like that.
 5           Q    All right.  In addition to the personal
 6      videotape you had in your hand, was there any
 7      security videotape permanently installed at the Fort
 8      Harrison?
 9           A    Yes, sir.  There's security cameras that
10      keep an eye on the front of the Fort Harrison.
11           Q    And this videotape we're about to show,
12      Exhibit 1, that came from the security camera in
13      front of the Fort Harrison; is that correct?
14           A    I believe so.  I believe so.  I believe it
15      was a security camera by the garage entrance.
16           Q    Okay.  Okay.  Thank you.  All right.  So
17      then did anything unusual happen at that time?
18           A    Yes.  Mr. Minton was there, he was very
19      belligerent.  He was --
20           Q    Who was?  I'm sorry.
21           A    Mr. Minton.
22           Q    Okay.
23           A    And while we were walking, the first
24      incident was I was walking backwards; I was in front
25      of him a few paces, and he took his picket sign and

        page 38

 1      he pushed it into my camera.  I started to reel back
 2      but I steadied myself and kind of moved to a
 3      different position to continue the videotape.  While
 4      this was going on he was yelling different statements
 5      critical of the church.
 6           Q    Are you responding in any way?
 7           A    I did not say one word to him that night,
 8      sir.
 9           Q    Did you make any overt actions toward him?
10           A    Not -- the only thing I did was videotape
11      him.
12           Q    All right.  And how far away from -- you
13      from him, were you when you were videotaping?
14           A    I would say I was a couple paces away.
15           Q    Five feet or more?
16           A    I would say probably between -- I mean, it
17      varied because we were walking, but I would say
18      probably on the average around four feet or four to
19      five feet.
20           Q    Did interfere with his passageway?
21           A    No, sir, I didn't.
22           Q    All right.  Go ahead tell the Court what
23      happened.
24           A    Prior to the incident where he struck me
25      with the picket sign we were walking down Fort

        page 39

 1      Harrison and then we went west to the north side of
 2      the Fort Harrison where he turns around and grabs the
 3      strap to my video camera and tries to pull it out of
 4      my hands.  At that time --
 5           Q    What did you do when that was done?
 6           A    I just held onto my camera, I just held
 7      onto the camera.
 8           Q    You didn't attempt to strike him?
 9           A    No, sir, not at all.
10           Q    Okay.  So then what happened?
11           A    Well he eventually let go of the strap and
12      I continued videotaping.  And at that time he turned
13      around and with his picket sign pushed me into the
14      north side of the Fort Harrison Hotel.  At that
15      moment I had no place to go.  My back was directly to
16      the wall and the picket sign was right here to my
17      chest.  I did reach back and push it out, push it
18      away from me, and then I moved off to the side so my
19      back wouldn't be against the wall.
20           Q    Well that was -- you wouldn't call that a
21      striking, you would call that a pushing?
22           A    No, that was a push.  That was a push.  It
23      wasn't like a strike with a picket sign.
24           Q    All right.  So what happened next?
25           A    At that point we walked back to the corner

                                                                40

 1      right along Fort Harrison and Mr. Minton was standing
 2      there.  And he said, I think it's time to call the
 3      police or something to that effect.  And he picked up
 4      his cell phone and he started dialing the number and
 5      put it up to his ear.
 6                At that point he started to walk
 7      across -- I believe it's Park.  He started to walk
 8      across that street towards the Presbyterian church
 9      and he was out in the road when I started to follow
10      him, and he turned around.  He had a crazed look in
11      his eyes, and he said, don't be following me.
12                The next thing I know, I did not have any
13      glasses on because I was videotaping.  The edge of
14      the picket sign caught me right -- right there.  Took
15      me totally by surprise; snapped my head back; I lost
16      balance and fell down.
17           Q    How did the edge of the picket sign catch
18      you in the eye?
19           A    Well -- it wasn't.
20           Q    What did he do to cause that?
21           A    It was a jabbing.  He jabbed the picket
22      sign into my face.
23           Q    Were you injured?
24           A    Yes, I was.
25           Q    Did you go to the hospital?

        page 41

 1           A    Yes, I did.
 2           Q    Did the force of the strike or jabbing
 3      cause you to fall?
 4           A    Yes, it did.
 5           Q    All right.  Mr. Howd, you have previously
 6      looked at this Exhibit 1 with me.  And I ask you does
 7      it fairly and accurately reflect what you have
 8      described here?
 9           A    Yes, sir.
10      MR. JOHNSON:  I'd like to roll the
11 picture, Judge, if I may.
12      THE COURT:  You may.
13      THE COURT REPORTER:  Your Honor.
14      THE COURT:  Yes, ma'am.
15      THE COURT REPORTER:  Is there audio
16 that I need to write?
17      THE COURT:  Will there be sound?
18      MR. JOHNSON:  On this particular one --
19      THE COURT:  Here's where I'm going.
20 Court reporter she's not -- probably not
21 going to be able to take all this down.
22 What I would like is that this, once this is
23 done, it will be marked for I.D. and I want
24 it in evidence.  And, Donna, you won't have
25 to take it.  We'll have the video.

        page 42

 1      MR. JOHNSON:  Judge, I believe this one
 2 does not have sound.  This came from the
 3 different type of camera; is that correct?
 4      THE WITNESS:  It's just traffic if we
 5 hear anything.
 6      THE COURT:  Traffic in the background?
 7      THE WITNESS:  Yes, it's quite a
 8 distance away.
 9      THE COURT:  But as it stands right now,
10 even if the next video has sound on it, I
11 want those put into the record, they'll
12 speak for themselves and she doesn't have to
13 attempt to try and take each word down,
14 because we could stopping and starting this
15 forever.
16      MR. JOHNSON:  Yes, sir.  That's
17 acceptable.
18      THE COURT:  Mr. Devlamings, any
19 objection here?
20      MR. DOUGLAS DEVLAMING:  No objection.
21      BY MR. JOHNSON:
22           Q    Now where are you in that picture?
23           A    We are on the north side of The Fort
24      Harrison at that point.
25           Q    Whose in the white shirt?

        page 43

 1           A    Oh, no, I'm sorry.  Yeah, I am standing on
 2      the corner of the street there to the right of that
 3      post, the concrete post.
 4           Q    In the light colored shirt?
 5           A    Yes, sir.
 6           Q    Whose standing to the left of the concrete
 7      post?
 8           A    That is Mr. Minton and Miss Brooks.
 9           Q    All right.  Now you're walking?
10           A    Yes, that's --
11      MR. JOHNSON:  Excuse me.  Can you back
12 that up and show that?
13      BY MR. JOHNSON:
14           Q    Now you had previously described being
15      struck with the sign and falling down.  Could you
16      tell the Court if this is what you were talking
17      about?
18           A    Yes, sir.  That is what happened.
19           Q    You're both walking across Pierce Street
20      now; is that correct?
21           A    Yes.
22      BY MR. JOHNSON:
23           Q    All right.  Now go ahead.
24           A    Mr. Minton is ahead of me.  This is where
25      he turns around and jabs me in the face.

        page 44

 1           Q    And where in the face did it jab you?
 2           A    It caught me -- it was -- it was -- it was
 3      like he was headed for my left eye actually, because
 4      it caught me right over the eye where I got an
 5      abrasion underneath the eye and a small cut above the
 6      eye.
 7           Q    And you did go to the hospital?
 8           A    Yes, I did.
 9           Q    And you did have a photograph after you
10      left the hospital?
11           A    Yes.
12           Q    I'll show that later.  What happened next?
13      MR. JOHNSON:  Will you roll the
14 picture.
15      BY MR. JOHNSON:
16           Q    And See if you can describe this.  Now
17      that's you lying on the sidewalk?
18           A    Yes, sir.
19           Q    Did anything unusual happen?
20           A    Well at that time -- after I fell down I
21      didn't see Mr. Minton or Miss Brooks, but --
22           Q    Have you since learned that a police car
23      rolled up?
24           A    Yes, sir.  I heard there was one at the
25      intersection who actually saw the incidents.

        page 45

 1      MR. JOHNSON:  Let's back it up so the
 2 Court can see that.  I will be calling the
 3 officer, Your Honor.  And I want to make
 4 sure we -- okay.  Now roll it again, please,
 5 sir.
 6      BY MR. JOHNSON:
 7           Q    Now after -- you didn't call the police or
 8      anything.
 9           A    No, sir.
10           Q    You were on the ground, stunned?
11           A    Yes.
12           Q    All right.  Okay.  And that's the
13      Clearwater Police Department.  All right, thank you.
14      MR. JOHNSON:  Your Honor, I'd like this
15 marked as Exhibit 2.
16      THE COURT:  All right, which is --
17      MR. JOHNSON:  The photograph taken
18 immediately afterwards.
19      THE COURT:  Attorneys, one other thing
20 that would help.  When we take a break, I
21 try to go about an hour at a time when we
22 take breaks, come up to the clerk and give
23 her whatever you're going to be introducing
24 and let her start marking them so we don't
25 have to keep waiting.  I'd like to get this

        page 46

 1 all done as soon as possible as much as it's
 2 going in evidence.
 3      MR. JOHNSON:  All right.
 4      THE COURT:  All right.  Now you want
 5 these marked for I.D.?
 6      MR. JOHNSON:  Yes, sir.  I would offer
 7 in evidence this particular one photograph.
 8      THE COURT:  All right.  The clerk is
 9 going to mark them for us.
10      MR. JOHNSON:  Judge, we have a number
11 of Internet markings.
12      THE COURT:  Internet markings?
13      MR. JOHNSON:  Internet postings.
14      THE COURT:  These have been downloaded
15 and we have copies?
16      MR. JOHNSON:  Yes, sir.  I have an
17 expert to explain it.
18      THE COURT:  Okay.
19      BY MR. JOHNSON:
20           Q    Mr. Howd, I show you Plaintiff's Exhibit
21      No. 2 for identification and ask if you recognize
22      that photograph.
23           A    Yes, sir, I do.
24           Q    And who is shown in the photograph?
25           A    That is me, sir.

        page 47

 1           Q    All right.  Could you hand -- give it to
 2      me.  I'll hand it to the judge.
 3           A    Okay.
 4      MR. JOHNSON:  Your Honor, may I offer
 5 this?
 6      THE COURT:  All right.  Mr. Devlaming
 7 you have a copy of what she's showing?
 8      MR. DENIS DEVLAMING:  Make sure.  It's
 9 the same, paul?  Is this the one picture?
10      MR. JOHNSON:  Yes, sir.  And, here, you
11 can look at my copy.
12      BY MR. JOHNSON:
13           Q    What does the photograph show?
14           A    That shows the effects of the picket sign
15      after it was jabbed into my face.
16           Q    And when was that photograph taken?
17           A    That was taken the night -- that night
18      after I got out of the hospital.
19           Q    And show on your face to the Court where
20      you were struck and where you were injured.
21           A    Well I was struck -- the edge of the picket
22      sign indicated me, like, directly over my left eye,
23      which created the abrasion underneath the eye and the
24      cut along the eyebrow.
25           Q    All right.  Thank you.  Let me have the

        page 48

 1      photograph.
 2                Mr. Howd, you are the Petitioner in this
 3      case, and you signed the petition for injunction; did
 4      you not?
 5           A    Yes, sir.
 6           Q    In the petition --
 7      MR. JOHNSON:  And does Your Honor have
 8 that before Your Honor?
 9      THE COURT:  I do.
10      BY MR. JOHNSON:
11           Q    Did you review the petition
12      as -- particularly as to the locations in Clearwater
13      and Pinellas County that were owned or leased by the
14      Church of Scientology?
15           A    Yes, sir, I did.
16           Q    And were they set out in that petition?
17           A    I'm sorry.
18           Q    Were these locations set out in that
19      petition?
20           A    Yes, they were.
21           Q    And you also saw the injunction entered by
22      Judge Penick; did you not?
23           A    Yes, I did.
24           Q    Which included the same locations in his
25      injunction?

        page 49

 1           A    The same exact documents, yes.
 2           Q    I'd like to ask you to --
 3      MR. JOHNSON:  May I approach the
 4 witness?
 5      THE COURT:  You may, sir.
 6      BY MR. JOHNSON:
 7           Q    If you'll turn to the location of the
 8      church locations.
 9      MR. JOHNSON:  Counsel, this is at Page
10 2 of the petition.
11      BY MR. JOHNSON:
12           Q    All right.  Starting with little "A" and
13      going down the list, describe the buildings of the
14      Church of Scientology and how they're used.  Fort
15      Harrison, is that the location where the attack took
16      place?
17           A    Yes, sir.
18           Q    And how is the Fort Harrison Hotel used?
19           A    Well the Fort Harrison Hotel is used as a
20      hotel.  It's also used as -- it has administration
21      offices, restaurants for Scientologists as well as
22      spiritual counseling.  That is it's main function.
23           Q    And there are rooms overlooking Fort
24      Harrison Avenue that are used for religious
25      counseling?

        page 50

 1           A    Yes, sir.
 2           Q    Is that sometimes called auditing?
 3           A    Yes.
 4           Q    And they're located on what floor?
 5           A    They're located on the fourth, fifth, and
 6      sixth floor.
 7           Q    And from those auditing rooms can you hear
 8      sound coming the from the street?
 9           A    Yes, you can, if they're loud enough.  Like
10      if somebody's yelling or screaming you can.
11           Q    All right.  The next item Number B,
12      Sandcastle building, that's located at 200 North
13      Osceola?
14           A    Yes, sir.
15           Q    And describe how that is used.
16           A    That's also used for auditing as well as --
17           Q    You said "auditing".  That's religious
18      counseling?
19           A    Yes, sir, religious counseling.  As well as
20      religious education, Scientology scriptures, and
21      things like that.
22           Q    Is it used for residences for parishioners
23      coming to Clearwater?
24           A    Yes, sir.  Yes, it is.
25           Q    So both the Fort Harrison Hotel and the

        page 51

 1      Sandcastle buildings are used for residential
 2      purposes among other purposes; is that right?
 3           A    Yes, sir.
 4           Q    And the West Coast building, No. C?
 5           A    That's an administrative building.
 6           Q    I'm sorry.
 7           A    That's an administrative building there.
 8           Q    Administrative building?
 9           A    Yes, sir.
10           Q    Has offices there?
11           A    Yes, sir.
12           Q    Of the Scientology workers?
13           A    Yes.  And the different departments will be
14      located there.  It's mostly used as -- for the
15      administrators of different departments and areas.
16      There's no scripture counseling or training going on
17      there.
18           Q    Okay.  All right.  The Coachman building at
19      50O Cleveland Street?
20           A    Yes, that's one of the main buildings for
21      training, religious education, things like that.
22           Q    The Clearwater Bank building at 5O3
23      Cleveland Street?
24           A    That holds my offices, so it has
25      administrators' offices there, as well as the staff

                                                                52

 1      dining rooms.  The staff dining rooms.
 2           Q    The staff dining rooms?
 3           A    Yes, sir.
 4           Q    The Scientologists who are performing
 5      services at the Fort Harrison Hotel down on 210 South
 6      Fort Harrison, do they come to the Clearwater Bank
 7      building during the day?
 8           A    Yes, sir, they do, a number of times.
 9           Q    On how many occasions?
10           A    I would say -- it varies, but at least
11      probably four or five times.  They come for
12      breakfast, lunch, dinner, as well as any staff
13      meetings to be held there.
14           Q    Could you estimate how many people or
15      Scientologists, staff members, are coming from The
16      Fort Harrison to the Clearwater Bank building on
17      these four or five times a day?
18           A    Every staff member in the Fort Harrison as
19      well as staff in the Coachman building and in other
20      buildings.  There is approximately a thousand staff
21      employed by the church.
22           Q    So they're out there on the streets between
23      the Fort Harrison and the bank building four times a
24      day?
25           A    Yes, sir.  At least.

        page 53

 1           Q    Does that pretty well fill up the
 2      sidewalks?
 3           A    Yes, it does.  They get quite packed.
 4           Q    All right.  The Hacienda Gardens?
 5           A    That is where the staff hotels are.  That's
 6      where staff that work at the church live.
 7           Q    They're residences?
 8           A    Yes.
 9           Q    The Yachtsman on Cleveland Street?
10           A    The Yachtsman is a hotel for Scientologists
11      that come from out of town for church services stay
12      there.
13           Q    And here again it's for residences while
14      they're taking service there?
15           A    Yes.
16           Q    The Quality Inn on U.S. Highway 19 North?
17           A    The Quality Inn houses the children of
18      staff as well as the families live there.  And that's
19      where the children have their schooling and things
20      like that.
21           Q    The Mariner Hotel on 711 Cleveland Street?
22           A    That's another hotel for visiting
23      parishioners.
24           Q    The Bayside Student Hotels?
25           A    Those are -- well, it's -- Bayside is where

                                                                54

 1      the training was.  Those are three hotels on Fort
 2      Harrison that hold students from other churches that
 3      send their staff to the church to train.
 4           Q    So those three buildings, the J, K, and L,
 5      Bayside Student Hotel, Clipper Student, and
 6      Tradewinds all hold visiting Scientologists for
 7      residence?
 8           A    Yes, sir.
 9           Q    While they're here in Clearwater and
10      performing staff functions and studying?
11           A    Yes, sir, that's correct.
12           Q    All right.  The Osceola Inn on North
13      Osceola Avenue?
14           A    That is the building that's just been
15      purchased and it's being remodeled.  But that will
16      also be used, I believe, at this time for hotel
17      space.
18           Q    At the present time, though, until it's
19      completed, it's not being used?
20           A    No, no.  It's just --
21           Q    But you plan to use it for residence of
22      parishioners coming to Clearwater?
23           A    Yes, sir.
24           Q    The Burnside building?
25           A    That's an administrative building.

        page 55

 1           Q    Say again?
 2           A    That's an administrative building.
 3           Q    Auxilliary building on North Fort Harrison?
 4           A    Also an administrative building.
 5           Q    Students College on 531 Franklin Street?
 6           A    That is where the staff study the different
 7      Scientology courses.
 8           Q    All right.  And Q site of the former Grey
 9      Moss Hotel?  What's happening there?
10           A    Well that's where the latest building is
11      being constructed.
12           Q    That's under construction now?
13           A    Yes, sir.
14           Q    All right.  All right, sir.
15      MR. JOHNSON:  Excuse me just one
16 moment.  You may examine.
17      THE COURT:  No further questions?
18      MR. JOHNSON:  No, sir.
19      THE COURT:  Okay.  Mr. Devlaming, sir?
20              CROSS-EXAMINATION
21      BY MR. DENIS DEVLAMING:
22           Q    Mr. Howd, if I understand your petition
23      correctly, you want Mr. Minton to stay 150 yards away
24      from all the locations that have just been told to
25      Judge Penick?

        page 56

 1           A    That's correct.
 2           Q    You understand that these locations
 3      basically pepper all around our city?
 4           A    Yes, sir.
 5           Q    So in other words, it would be all right
 6      with you if he stood somewhere had Largo with a
 7      protest sign?
 8           A    It would be totally fine with me.
 9           Q    That would be fine with you.  All right.
10      Now of all these places, I understand you reside at
11      Hacienda Gardens, right?
12           A    Yes, sir.  That's where I live.
13           Q    And your office is in the Clearwater Bank
14      building.
15           A    Yes, sir.
16           Q    And as to the other places, you may go
17      there from time to time but they are not your primary
18      place where you reside or where you work?
19           A    That's correct.
20           Q    Now do you have a problem with Robert
21      Minton protesting the church?
22           A    I have no problem with Robert Minton
23      protesting the church.  There is a problem with
24      Mr. Minton assaulting me or other Scientologists.
25           Q    So you would have no problem, then, if

        page 57

 1      Mr. Minton could walk up and down the sidewalk right
 2      in front of all these different residence and places
 3      of business in an orderly fashion protesting the
 4      church so long as he didn't assault a church member.
 5      Is that accurate?
 6           A    Sure.  My function there was to monitor him
 7      and make sure that he knew that he was under -- that
 8      he was being videotaped so that he wouldn't assault.
 9           Q    Okay.  And so long as no assault takes
10      place, it's all right with you that he
11      exercise -- what are you looking at?  Are you looking
12      at one of the lawyers?
13           A    No --
14           Q    It's all right with you that he exercise
15      his First Amendment rights by going up and down the
16      sidewalk in front of the Fort Harrison, correct?
17           A    Yes, that's correct.
18           Q    Did you have an opportunity to read this
19      petition before you signed it?
20           A    Yes, I did.
21           Q    Is it accurate?
22           A    Yes, it is.
23           Q    And the abrasion that you showed to Judge
24      Penick in the photograph was where on your face?
25           A    It was -- was a cut over on the left

        page 58

 1      eyebrow and an abrasion right underneath the eye.
 2           Q    Okay.  Anything else?
 3           A    I'm sorry.
 4           Q    Anything else visible on your face?
 5           A    No.
 6           Q    Okay.  Let me read something to you.  On
 7      Page 4 of your verified petition it says, as a result
 8      the of Respondent's attack Petitioner was bleeding
 9      from above the right eye and suffered abrasions below
10      the eye.  Didn't you just tell us it was your left
11      eye?
12           A    Yes, it was the left eye.
13           Q    So this is false.
14           A    Yeah, it was my left eye.
15           Q    Okay.  But earlier you do talk about the
16      left eye but signify in this petition that it was
17      both.  You're correcting that now, that it was only
18      one eye?
19           A    Yeah, there was only one eye.  I had the
20      camera over my right eye.  And we jabbed the picket
21      sign, he jabbed it right into my left eye.
22           Q    Did he ever throw you to the ground?
23           A    No, he didn't.
24           Q    Page 4, in addition Petitioner suffered
25      great pain in the lower right back and head from

        page 59

 1      being thrown to the ground.  Is that accurate or
 2      inaccurate?
 3           A    No, it is accurate.  Mr. Minton did not
 4      throw me to the ground.  But from the surprise and
 5      the force of the picket sign, it hit me in my face,
 6      my head snapped back, I lost balance and fell to the
 7      ground.
 8           Q    So he did not throw you to the ground?
 9           A    No, he did not.
10           Q    You wish to correct that in your verified
11      petition?
12           A    Let me see.  It was on Page 4?
13           Q    Right.
14           A    Where does it say --
15           Q    Right about the middle.  It says,
16      Petitioner suffered great pain in the lower right
17      back and head from being thrown to the ground.
18      Right?  About smack middle of the page.
19           A    Okay.  I mean, that doesn't say Mr. Minton
20      threw me to the ground.
21           Q    Well did anybody throw you to the ground?
22           A    No.
23           Q    Okay.  You fell to the ground?
24           A    Yes, sir.
25           Q    Now this surveillance photograph -- video

        page 60

 1      that Judge Penick saw, that does not show -- is that
 2      a stationary video from one of the eaves at the
 3      Church of Scientology?
 4           A    I'm not sure exactly where the camera is
 5      located.  They said it was a security camera that was
 6      set up in the garage.
 7           Q    Okay.  It's stationary, though?
 8           A    I don't know.
 9           Q    Okay.  Nobody's hand holding it to your
10      knowledge?
11           A    Not to my knowledge.
12           Q    All right.  So we don't see what's going on
13      around the corner there.  Let me go over what you say
14      was an assault by Mr. Minton.  Off camera at one
15      point in time you and Mr. Minton are around the
16      left-hand corner as the viewing would be on this
17      camera, correct?
18           A    That's correct.
19           Q    And you say that while you and Mr. Minton
20      are around that area that Minton assaulted you there
21      as well?  He pushed the sign up against you?
22           A    He pushed the sign up against me and also
23      grabbed the strap to my camera.
24           Q    So he assaulted you around the corner as
25      well?

        page 61

 1           A    Yes.
 2           Q    Did you assault him?
 3           A    I did not touch him.
 4           Q    Could you explain to Judge Penick, then,
 5      while within seconds thereafter Mr. Minton grabs his
 6      cell phone and says, I've had enough, I'm going to
 7      call the police?  Why would he call the police if he
 8      assaulted you?
 9           A    I have no idea.
10           Q    So what we're going to hear on that video,
11      on the one that has the audio that's in the
12      possession of prosecutor, is Minton saying he's had
13      enough and he's calling the police?
14           A    Or something to that effect.
15           Q    And he starts to walk across the street.
16           A    Yes, that's correct.
17           Q    And you follow him.
18           A    That's correct.
19           Q    With your camera in his face.
20           A    It wasn't in his face.  I was about five
21      feet away from him at that time and -- at which time
22      he turned around and jabbed the picket sign into my
23      face.
24           Q    And he says what?
25           A    Don't you follow me.

        page 62

 1           Q    Quit following me.  And he turns around and
 2      he holds out this protest placard, correct?
 3           A    No, that is totally incorrect.  He did not
 4      hold it up straight like that.  He had it where the
 5      edge -- and he did it like jabbed into the left side
 6      of my face.
 7           Q    Mr. Howd, let me ask you something.  Being
 8      in the Bureau of Special Affairs --
 9           A    It's Office of Special Affairs.
10           Q    Office of Special Affairs.
11           A    Yes, sir.
12           Q    Is that what used to be called the
13      Guardian's Office?
14           A    No.
15           Q    Never was called the Guardian's Office
16      years ago?
17           A    No, sir.
18           Q    Are you in Department 20?
19           A    Yes, I am.
20           Q    Are you familiar with the Guardian's Office
21      being also Department 20?
22           A    No, I'm not.  I was the -- the Guardian's
23      Office was long before I ever became involved with
24      the church.
25           Q    How long have you been a member of the

        page 63

 1      church?
 2           A    Since 1989.
 3           Q    Do you agree or disagree with the following
 4      statement:  A suppressive person may be deprived of
 5      property or injured by any means by any Scientologist
 6      without any discipline of a Scientologist.  He may be
 7      tricked, sued, or lied to, or destroyed.
 8      MR. JOHNSON:  Object to the form of the
 9 question.  It's not cross of anything
10 brought on direct.  It's irrelevant,
11 immaterial.  He doesn't identify when that
12 was written and by whom, and if certainly
13 has no bearing on the issues before the
14 Court today.
15      MR. DENIS DEVLAMING:  Judge, I'll lay a
16 predicate.
17      THE COURT:  Lay a predicate.  Let me do
18 one thing, too.  Attorneys, I ask that you
19 keep a vigil out.  I've noticed people
20 coming and going.  I don't know whether they
21 are witnesses that are going to appear at a
22 later time, but I hold you both to the rule
23 in case you see somebody come in.  Please
24 proceed.
25      MR. DENIS DEVLAMING:  Thank you.

        page 64

 1      BY MR. DENIS DEVLAMING:
 2           Q    You know who L. Ron Hubbard is?
 3           A    Yes, sir.
 4           Q    He started the Church of Scientology?
 5           A    That's correct.
 6           Q    Are you familiar with his policy on what's
 7      called fair game?
 8           A    I've never read his policy.
 9           Q    Okay.  So you agree or disagree with what I
10      just read in open court?
11      MR. JOHNSON:  Your Honor, please.  I
12 have an objection.
13      THE COURT:  All right.  You do, sir.
14 Objection's overruled at this time.  I'm
15 going to see what predicate's laid.  Please
16 proceed.
17      BY MR. DENIS DEVLAMING:
18           Q    If that is a discipline of the church do
19      you agree or disagree with it, that that can be done
20      to others, suppressive persons?
21           A    That is not from a policy I have ever read
22      in any of the church policies I've read.
23           Q    Okay.  So then here's the follow-up
24      question:  Then you disavow that statement or that
25      policy if it is policy, correct?

        page 65

 1           A    Totally.
 2      MR. JOHNSON:  Just a second.  He's
 3 assuming something is policy without laying
 4 a predicate.  He announced the to the Court
 5 he would lay a predicate.  I haven't seen a
 6 predicate laid yet.  So I object to it
 7 without predicate being laid.
 8      MR. DENIS DEVLAMING:  All right.
 9      BY MR. DENIS DEVLAMING:
10           Q    In October 1967 founder L. Ron Hubbard
11      issued a policy letter entitled Penalties for Lower
12      Conditions.  Did you read that in your readings of
13      Scientology?
14           A    No, I don't recall ever reading that.
15           Q    All right.  Now when Mr. Minton comes to
16      town and you go out to videotape him, do you approve
17      or disprove of those that stop his egress, in other
18      words his abilities to walk up and down the street?
19           A    I have never seen anybody stop his egress
20      up and down the street.
21           Q    So that is not to be done as far as the
22      Church of Scientology.
23           A    As far as I'm concerned.
24           Q    Okay.  So if we had a video of
25      Scientologists doing that, that would be against

        page 66

 1      policy, correct?
 2      MR. JOHNSON:  Excuse me.  Object to
 3 unless he identifies what Scientologists,
 4 what city, what country he's talking about.
 5 Certainly I don't think he's talking
 6 Clearwater.
 7      MR. DENIS DEVLAMING:  Well actually,
 8 Mr. Johnson, we have a video, Your Honor, of
 9 Clearwater July 11th, 1999.
10      BY MR. DENIS DEVLAMING:
11           Q    So if we see a videotape, Mr. Howd, you're
12      going to be sitting right at this table when it's
13      shown, of somebody stopping the egress of this man as
14      he's protesting, that would be against church policy,
15      correct?
16           A    There's no church policy that explicitly
17      states that one does not stop the egress of someone
18      when they're outside picketing.  I mean, what policy
19      are you talking about?
20           Q    I'm asking you whether or not you're
21      allowed to do that.  Is that part of the doctrine of
22      the church to stop them -- how about to harass
23      picketers?  You harass picketers?
24           A    No.
25           Q    Okay.

        page 67

 1           A    That day I was videotaping Mr. Minton.  I
 2      did not say anything to him.  I was there so that he
 3      realized that he was being videotaped to keep him
 4      from assaulting any Scientologists whether it was
 5      staff or parishioners.  I mean, little did I realize
 6      I was going to be the one who was assaulted.
 7                But that was my purpose there.  It was not
 8      to harass Mr. Minton.  It was not to do anything of
 9      that nature.  It was on an advice of counsel to
10      document his activities in the front of my church.
11           Q    Okay.  So those then -- let me ask you
12      this:  Would it be appropriate or inappropriate in
13      the Department of Special Affairs in the city of
14      Clearwater --
15      MR. JOHNSON:  Excuse me.  I hate to
16 interrupt, but it's not a the department,
17 it's the office.  There's no department.
18      THE COURT:  Thank you.
19      MR. DENIS DEVLAMING:  Okay.
20      MR. DENIS DEVLAMING:
21           Q    In the Office of Special Affairs to, as a
22      person protests, call them an adulter, say I'm going
23      to gather information and send it to your wife so she
24      can divorce you, or to use four letter words?  Is
25      that all fair game.

        page 68

 1           A    What do you mean by fair game?
 2           Q    By members of the Church of Scientology if
 3      Mr. Minton is -- or any protester is walking up and
 4      down, can Scientologists follow him and say things
 5      like that, what do you think about being an
 6      adulterer, Mr. Minton, do you like being an adulter;
 7      I'm going to gather information send it to your wife;
 8      and then using any kind of foul language or
 9      four-letter words.  Is that approved or disproved by
10      your Office of Special Affairs?
11           A    I mean, it's a very general statement.  I
12      don't --
13           Q    I'm trying to be real specific.  I said can
14      you call them an adulter, can you say let me take
15      pictures of the lovebirds, maybe he and somebody he
16      may be seeing outside marriage, or anything of this
17      nature, or use four-letter words outside of your
18      church.
19           A    That would be entirely up to the individual
20      that's out there that's -- whoever they may be,
21      that's --
22           Q    But I certainly is not done with your
23      knowledge or the Office of Special Affairs, or
24      approved?  Let me just say approved.
25           A    Approved?

        page 69

 1           Q    Yes.
 2           A    Approved by the Office of Special Affairs?
 3           Q    Yes.
 4           A    Again, when you say approved by the Office
 5      of Special Affairs is this -- it could also depend on
 6      what did this person say to the person who's saying
 7      that to them.  I mean, it's just a very broad
 8      statement to say do I approve or does somebody
 9      approve in the Office of Special Affairs one way or
10      the other on this.  I mean, there's no --
11           Q    Mr. Howd is there a edict --
12      MR. JOHNSON:  Excuse me.  He did not
13 finish his answer.
14      MR. DENIS DEVLAMING:  Oh, I'm sorry.
15           Go ahead.
16           A    I mean, Mr. Minton has many times been very
17      belligerent in front of our church.  If a
18      Scientologist is going to turn around and say the
19      same things to them under their First Amendment
20      rights, I mean, it's covered under the First
21      Amendment.  We don't have policy one way or the other
22      in the Office of Special Affairs saying what can be
23      said and what can't be said.
24           Q    There's no policy?
25           A    Correct.

        page 70

 1           Q    No policy?
 2           A    That's correct.
 3           Q    Fair game?
 4           A    Fair game, I have never read that.
 5           Q    No, I mean in general terms.  It's fair
 6      game.  If somebody gives it to you, you can give it
 7      back to them, right?
 8           A    Okay, now, what do you mean by fair game?
 9           Q    Well, if Mr. Minton is saying things about
10      the Church of Scientology, you can say things about
11      Mr. Minton's private life?
12           A    Again, there's no policy one way or the
13      other on this.  It's up to an individual.  If
14      Mr. Minton is protesting in front of the Church of
15      Scientology, if he's screaming or yelling belligerent
16      statements and a Scientologist is there and they care
17      to exercise their First Amendment rights, the church
18      is not going to stop him.
19           Q    Fine.  That's all I wanted you to say.  So
20      then that's okay.  That's fair game for them to
21      say -- exercise their First Amendment rights to
22      include insults, foul language, four-letter words if
23      they think they can use it if the comeback is
24      appropriate.
25           A    It's up to the individual.

        page 71

 1           Q    Up to the individual Scientologist.
 2           A    Or whatever.
 3           Q    Is the spiritual headquarters?  On Fort
 4      Harrison, the Fort Harrison?
 5           A    Spiritual headquarters?
 6           Q    Yes, where's the place of worship?
 7           A    Well there's counseling that can happen in
 8      a number of different --
 9           Q    Where do you go to worship?  In all these
10      places that Mr. Johnson has read off, which is the
11      place where you go to worship as a church?
12           A    Do you mean worship in a traditional sense
13      in a Christian sense?  There is no place to worship
14      in, say, like the Christian sense of the word.
15      However, there is spiritual counseling in the church
16      that happens throughout the properties within
17      Clearwater.
18           Q    Well let me ask you this.  Is there one of
19      those 17 or 18 locations where a member of the public
20      that is not a member of Scientology can walk in off
21      the street and worship?  Will you allow a member of
22      the public to walk in off the street and worship?
23           A    There are -- worship in the sense of the
24      words you're using it is not part of the Scientology
25      custom.  Okay?  There are courses that one could

        page 72

 1      take.  There's actually a church mission right in
 2      Clearwater that is separate from the Flag Service
 3      Organization of downtown Clearwater where anybody
 4      could come off the street and take Scientology
 5      spiritual counseling, study Scientology course,
 6      pretty much the whole gamut.
 7                But as far as worship, there is no -- this
 8      is the -- this is the religion of Scientology.  It's
 9      not a Christian religion where somebody would come
10      and worship in a Christian sense or in a Moslem
11      since.  It's a different religion.
12           Q    Mr. Howd, did you have an opportunity to
13      review a videotape that was given to Mr. Johnson by
14      myself?
15           A    I don't believe I did.
16           Q    So in the last time before Judge Penick
17      adjourned and I gave Mr. Johnson a copy of a
18      videotape, you have not seen it?
19           A    I have seen possibly parts of it.  I have
20      seen possibly -- I mean, I've been looking at a lot
21      of --
22           Q    Well let me refresh your recollection.  And
23      I'm sure Mr. Johnson can do this on redirect.  If it
24      is one that you may have seen, it might be of an
25      incident in Boston last year.  Does that refresh are

        page 73

 1      recollection?
 2           A    Okay.  There was -- yes, where Mr. Minton
 3      was arrested for assault and battery.
 4           Q    That's correct.  And it had to do with a
 5      placard, didn't it?
 6           A    Um.
 7           Q    And he was holding a protest sign, correct?
 8           A    That's correct.
 9           Q    All right.  And you saw the member of the
10      Church of Scientology provoke that incident and yell
11      to have the police called because Mr. Minton, in
12      walking up and down, came in contact with him.  Do
13      you see that part?
14      MR. JOHNSON:  Object.  This proposed
15 tape has not yet been offered in evidence
16 and may well not be admitted in evidence and
17 unless it is, we suggest it's irrelevant.
18 Something that happened in Boston is
19 irrelevant to something that happened here
20 on Halloween Night this year.
21      THE COURT:  Mr. Devlaming?
22      MR. DENIS DEVLAMING:  Judge, I'll ask a
23 few other questions, but really what I need
24 to do is to show a pattern, Judge.  And
25 that's what I'm asking.

        page 74

 1      THE COURT:  Proceed.  Lay a predicate.
 2      MR. DENIS DEVLAMING:  All right.
 3      MR. DENIS DEVLAMING:
 4           Q    Have you ever seen a film involving the
 5      Scientologists and Mr. Minton wherein the
 6      Scientologists are provoking Minton, inviting Minton,
 7      to either push him aside or to walk past him so that
 8      they have to be pushed aside so that there has to be
 9      a touching?  Have you ever seen that?
10           A    I have seen a video from Boston.  The video
11      that basically when Mr. Minton was arrested where
12      they were, both Mr. Minton and some individuals from
13      the church, were involved.
14           Q    Okay.  Now I want you to characterize how
15      that individual, the one that was assaulted, was
16      acting towards Minton.  Is that acceptable behavior
17      in the event that the Judge, allows us to play it in
18      this courtroom, or inacceptable (sic) behavior?
19           A    Based on what?
20           Q    On church doctrine.  On what the Office of
21      Special Affairs says you're allowed to do.
22           A    The Office of Special Affairs doesn't say
23      anybody is allowed to do anything in one way or other
24      when it comes to situation like this.  If there was a
25      Scientologist out there and he was

        page 75

 1      counter-demonstrating against Mr. Minton or whatever,
 2      it is not -- there is no policy, there is no official
 3      policy saying, this is how you act.
 4           Q    Okay.  So there was nothing wrong with what
 5      you saw as far as the Scientologists are concerned?
 6           A    I cannot make a determination on that
 7      because I wasn't there.  I didn't see the whole
 8      thing.  I saw part of the video.  There was -- it was
 9      heated.  There were words exchanged.  That's true.  I
10      saw Mr. Minton strike the other person.
11           Q    Did you see what happened -- did you see
12      what happened right before he threw that little
13      stick?  Did you see what happened right before that?
14           A    I saw the camera being jumbled around.
15           Q    That's right.  Because what you saw on that
16      video, if you watched the one that I gave
17      Mr. Johnson, it's two shots.  One taken by a
18      Scientologist, and the one that this man was holding.
19      And you saw the Scientologist knock that out of his
20      hand so he couldn't photograph it, the ground is then
21      being photographed --
22           A    I never saw that.  I never saw that.
23           Q    All right.  Okay, well then we'll wait.
24      MR. DENIS DEVLAMING:  That's all, Your
25 Honor.

        page 76

 1      THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you very
 2 much.  Mr. Johnson, redirect, sir?
 3            REDIRECT EXAMINATION
 4      BY MR. JOHNSON:
 5           Q    In addition to avoiding violence by
 6      Mr. Minton were you hoping to avoid his harassing
 7      members of the church and parishioners on that night,
 8      on Halloween Night this year?
 9           A    Yes, sir, I was.  I mean, my
10      purpose -- there was a few reasons I was doing that.
11      Number one was to make sure ensure that Mr. Minton
12      realized that he was being videotaped so that he
13      would not assault anybody.  Number two was that it
14      was also in the hopes that he would curb any type of
15      screaming or yelling that he has done numerous times
16      in the past that can disturb religious counseling
17      sessions that are happening within the Fort Harrison.
18           Q    They were going on right over his head?
19           A    Yes, sir.  I mean, people prepare years to
20      come to the church in Clearwater to -- for religious
21      services that only the church of Clearwater can give.
22      And to have an individual up there screaming and
23      hollering belligerent -- making belligerents
24      statements, vulgar statements, disrupting these
25      religious counseling services, is a very serious

        page 77

 1      offense within the church.
 2           Q    All right.  Now Mr. Devlaming asked you
 3      about something that happened some time ago in
 4      Boston.  And I ask you about what happened here in
 5      Clearwater on Halloween Night this year.  Did you
 6      harass Mr. Minton in any way prior to him striking
 7      you?
 8           A    No, sir, I did not.  I did not say a word.
 9           Q    Did you speak to him?
10           A    No, sir, I did not.  I didn't.
11           Q    Did you strike him in any way?
12           A    No, sir I didn't.
13           Q    In fact, he just turned around and whacked
14      you without any reason?
15      MR. DENIS DEVLAMING:  Objection,
16 leading.
17      MR. JOHNSON:  Okay.
18      BY MR. JOHNSON:
19           Q    Tell me what did he do?  Without any reason
20      did he do something to you?
21           A    He was walking away from me.  He was about
22      five feet away from me.  I had the video camera where
23      he spun around, he said, don't you follow me, and the
24      next thing I realize is the edge of the picket sign
25      just caught me right there.

        page 78

 1           Q    You were about how far away when he came
 2      over to hit you?
 3           A    I would say approximately four-and-a-half
 4      to five feet.
 5           Q    All right.
 6      MR. JOHNSON:  That's all.
 7      MR. DENIS DEVLAMING:  That's all.  No
 8 recross.
 9      THE COURT:  All right, sir.  You may
10 step down, have a seat over at counsel
11 table.  Ladies and gentlemen, we've been
12 going an hour approximately hour and 20, 25
13 minutes.  Let's take a 15-minute break at
14 this time.
15      MR. HOWIE:  May it please the Court.
16      THE COURT:  Hello.
17      MR. HOWIE:  Your Honor, I'm obligated
18 to be before Judge Adams in Tampa at three
19 o'clock.
20      THE COURT:  Good luck.  Drive safely.
21 You'll be back probably?  Okay.  Thank you
22 for giving that stuff to her.  I appreciate
23 it.  And the defense, did you have anything
24 to mark?
25      MR. DOUGLAS DEVLAMING:  We got it.

        page 79

 1      THE COURT:  Great.  Okay.  Call your
 2 next witness, sir.
 3      MR. JOHNSON:  Officer Beaudette.
 4      THE COURT:  Mr. Bailiff, if you can get
 5 Officer Beaudette, please, sir.
 6      THEREUPON,
 7                         MARK BEAUDETTE,
 8      WAS ADDUCED AS A WITNESS HEREIN AND AFTER BEING DULY
 9      SWORN ON OATH WAS EXAMINED AND TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS:
10                       DIRECT EXAMINATION
11      BY MR. JOHNSON:
12           Q    State your name please sir.
13           A    Mark Beaudette.
14           Q    And what is your occupation, Mr. Beaudette?
15           A    I'm a police officer for the City of
16      Clearwater.
17           Q    Officer Beaudette, on Halloween Night of
18      this year were you on patrol in your police cruiser
19      around the Fort Harrison Hotel?
20           A    Yes, I was.
21           Q    Tell the Judge, what you observed.
22           A    I observed a group of people on the
23      southwest corner of Pierce and South Fort Harrison.
24      I didn't pay that much attention to it because
25      there's always people out at the corner at that time

        page 80

 1      of night.  I heard some yelling, at which time I
 2      looked back and I seen Mr. Minton take a step towards
 3      Mr. Dowd (sic) and strike him with a sign that he was
 4      carrying.
 5           Q    Do you see the gentleman who did the
 6      striking here in the courtroom today?
 7           A    Yes, I do.
 8           Q    And where is he?
 9      MR. DENIS DEVLAMING:  Judge, we'll
10 stipulate Mr. Minton is to my left.
11      THE COURT:  Let the record so reflect.
12      BY MR. JOHNSON:
13           Q    Okay.  Then you saw Mr. Minton take a step
14      towards the gentleman and strike him with a sign, you
15      said?
16           A    Yes.
17           Q    And then what happened?
18           A    Mr. Dowd fell down.  Several people rushed
19      over towards him, and Mr. Minton started walking west
20      on Pierce Street.
21           Q    Did you do anything with your flashing red
22      and blue lights?
23           A    Yeah, I turned my lights on so I wouldn't
24      have any problems with traffic and cut across the
25      lanes and drove over to where Mr. Minton was.

        page 81

 1           Q    Now how far had Mr. Minton gone from the
 2      point of striking to where you stopped him in your
 3      police cruiser?
 4           A    Maybe a hundred feet.
 5           Q    After Mr. Minton struck Mr. Howd did he go
 6      back to see if he was injured or look at him or do
 7      anything of that sort?
 8           A    No.
 9           Q    He just took off?
10           A    He walked away.
11           Q    And did you have occasion to see any videos
12      taken there at the scene?
13           A    I did.
14           Q    And did they -- what did they show?
15           A    Basically they showed -- like, the two of
16      them that I -- that showed that portion of what
17      happened, showed basically what I just told you.
18           Q    Did either your personal view or the videos
19      you saw show Mr. Howd making any aggressive action or
20      movements toward Mr. Minton?
21           A    I didn't see any movement towards him
22      because I didn't see that portion of it.  The videos
23      that I showed didn't show anything that I considered
24      to be any aggressive action.
25           Q    But with your own vision, though, you saw

        page 82

 1      Mr. Minton striking and Mr. Howd fell down?
 2           A    Yes, sir.
 3           Q    Do you recognize Mr. Howd as being the
 4      gentleman that you saw that day?
 5           A    Yes.
 6           Q    What did you do, then, officially in
 7      connection with what you had observed and what you
 8      learned from seeing the videos and talking to -- did
 9      you talk to any witnesses or anything?
10           A    Yes, I did.
11           Q    All right.  From your investigation,
12      talking to the witnesses, looking at the videos,
13      personally seeing this action, what did you do?
14           A    I made a physical arrest of Mr. Minton.
15           Q    Charged him with what?
16           A    Simple battery, misdemeanor.
17           Q    I'm sorry.
18           A    Misdemeanor battery.
19           Q    Misdemeanor battery.  As far as you know is
20      that case still pending?
21           A    As far as I know it is.
22           Q    I don't know.
23      MR. JOHNSON:  Excuse me just a moment.
24      BY MR. JOHNSON:
25           Q    Do you know, officer, whether or not

        page 83

 1      Mr. Devlaming and I attempted to get copies of those
 2      videos that you saw that night?
 3           A    Some of them, the church approached me and
 4      asked if they could get copies of the videos.
 5           Q    And because there's an ongoing criminal
 6      investigation they were not released to either
 7      Mr. Devlaming nor to me?
 8           A    I don't know about Mr. Devlaming, but I do
 9      know that I told people from the church that I
10      couldn't release them because of an ongoing
11      investigation.
12      MR. JOHNSON:  Okay.  Your Honor, the
13 reason I pointed that out, because you
14 didn't see that video here, you saw the one
15 from down the front of the hotel.  This one,
16 the hand-held videos, I just wanted the
17 record to show neither Mr. Devlaming or I
18 have seen them because they're holding them
19 for the completion of the investigation.
20      THE COURT:  Okay.  Let the record so
21 reflect.
22      MR. JOHNSON:  All right.  You may exam.
23      THE COURT:  Mr. Devlaming?
24              CROSS-EXAMINATION
25      BY MR. DENIS DEVLAMING:

        page 84

 1           Q    Officer, what's the east-west road that
 2      goes along the church -- the Fort Harrison Hotel?
 3      What's the name of that road?
 4           A    Pierce Street.
 5           Q    Pierce.  I've seen this still video that
 6      was shown in the courtroom, that's the one that
 7      Mr. Johnson was just talking about, and at the end of
 8      it.  I don't know whether it was played to its end.
 9      I assuming it was for Judge Penick.  You see a police
10      cruiser taking -- heading north taking a left on
11      Pierce, which would, then, be heading west.  Would
12      that be you?
13           A    Yes, sir.  I would assume it is because I
14      haven't seen that video.
15           Q    Well I will tell you this.  It was within a
16      few seconds after the incident we see a police car.
17      You were the first on the scene?
18           A    That would be me.
19           Q    Okay.  Were you then heading north on Fort
20      Harrison?
21           A    Yes, sir.
22           Q    Okay.  So our vantage point, then, would
23      have been south of Pierce looking north, which would
24      be basically to the back of Mr. Howd, correct?
25           A    I was the first vehicle, I believe, at the

        page 85

 1      stop light that was red.  And it's pretty much just
 2      looking out the window.
 3           Q    Okay.  So you were stopped at a stoplight?
 4           A    Yes, sir.
 5           Q    Okay.  And you waited for the light to
 6      change?  And is that why it took five, six, seven
 7      seconds for you to make a left?
 8           A    Well, I had to also be sure that there
 9      wasn't any traffic coming.  I'm not going to get into
10      an accident over something that appears to be over at
11      the time.
12           Q    Were you able from your vantage point to
13      see what happened around the corner on Pierce Street
14      between Mr. Minton and Mr. Howd before the incident
15      you saw?
16           A    No.
17           Q    Did you see the breaking of the sign that
18      was carried by Mr. Minton?
19           A    No.  As I stated, I only seen the portion
20      when Mr. Minton started yelling at Mr. Dowd (sic)
21      just seconds before he was struck.
22           Q    Okay.  And did you hear him say quit
23      following me or stay away from me?
24           A    I can't really say that I did.  I heard
25      some yelling but it was inarticulate to me in that I

        page 86

 1      couldn't understand what was being said.
 2           Q    Was Mr. Minton yelling as he was walking
 3      away from Dowd (sic)?
 4           A    I can't really say.
 5           Q    Okay.
 6           A    Because when I looked up is when he in turn
 7      already --
 8           Q    But Minton was on his way north across
 9      Pierce Street when this happened, correct?
10           A    According to the videos that I watched,
11      yes.
12           Q    Well, and according to your vantage point?
13           A    Like I said, he had already turned when I
14      looked up, so I can't say which way he was going.
15           Q    I see.  Okay.  Did you see a cell phone to
16      his ear?
17           A    He had a cell phone with him.  I can't
18      really say if he had one when I saw him when the
19      subject got struck.  I can't really say for sure if
20      he had one in his --
21           Q    Did you determine during the course of your
22      investigation that Minton was calling the police
23      because of what just went between him and Mr. Dowd?
24           A    That's what he told me, yes.
25           Q    And did he indicate that he was being

        page 87

 1      followed or pursued by Dowd and that's when he pushed
 2      him away with the sign?
 3           A    Yes, that's what he said.
 4           Q    Did you have a conversation with Mr. Dowd?
 5           A    No, I did not.
 6           Q    Did you see Mr. Dowd?
 7           A    Yes, I did.
 8           Q    Did he appear to be injured in any way?
 9           A    Yes.
10           Q    How?
11           A    He had a slight cut just above the eyebrow
12      and a slight abrasion just underneath his --
13           Q    Did you talk the protest placard into
14      evidence?
15           A    Yes, I did.
16           Q    Did you determine it to be damaged?  Was it
17      cracked?
18           A    I don't know what shape.  It was still in
19      one piece.
20           Q    No stick on it?
21           A    No.
22           Q    In fact, it was just a piece of -- what do
23      they call it?  Foam board poster?
24           A    A double-layered piece of poster board.
25           Q    Poster board.  And did it have anything

        page 88

 1      that -- anything hard in order to hold it up in the
 2      air in a protest manner?
 3           A    To hold it up in the air, no.
 4           Q    So it was just a piece of -- a double piece
 5      of poster barred?
 6           A    That was held -- yes.  It was held together
 7      with four clamps.  I don't know how to describe it
 8      any better than that.  The wide clamps that you use
 9      to hold large bundles of papers together.
10           Q    Right.
11           A    One on each corner.
12           Q    Okay.  And did he push it in the direction
13      of Mr. Dowd -- did he swing it at him or did he push
14      it in his direction to keep him away?
15           A    He had it in his right-hand side.  It was
16      extended out away from him pointing towards Mr. Dowd,
17      and he jabbed it at him like that.
18           Q    And was Dowd coming in his direction at the
19      time that he did that?
20           A    Yes.
21           Q    And did Dowd have a video camera to his
22      face videotaping then?
23           A    Yes.
24           Q    Did you see the force upon which Mr. Dowd
25      was hit?

        page 89

 1           A    Yes.
 2           Q    Was it commensurate with him crumbling to
 3      the ground?
 4           A    I can't really tell you.  For him or for
 5      me?  I don't know.
 6           Q    How about for the average man?
 7           A    I can only speak for myself as far as that
 8      goes.
 9           Q    How tall are you?
10           A    5'10".
11           Q    What do you weigh?
12           A    190.
13           Q    Would it knock you to the ground?
14           A    No.
15           Q    Were you on routine patrol that day?
16           A    Yes, sir.
17           Q    Okay.  So you were not looking after any
18      protesting that was going on at the church or
19      anything like that?
20           A    No, I was unaware that there even was any.
21           Q    Was there any audio to the video that you
22      happen to listen to?
23           A    Yes.
24           Q    How many videos did you watch?
25           A    Three.

        page 90

 1           Q    And was one of them taken by Miss Brooks?
 2      Does that sound familiar?
 3           A    Yes.
 4           Q    And another one by Dowd -- Howd himself?
 5           A    Yes.
 6           Q    Were you able to hear on there what Minton
 7      said?
 8           A    Yes, I believe it was pretty loud.  Most of
 9      it is anyway.
10           Q    Okay.  Can you tell Judge Penick what he
11      said before he pushed the placard out in the
12      direction of Mr. Howd?
13           A    I can't do it word-for-word, but what he
14      said was to get away from me, leave me alone.
15           Q    And that immediately preceded him pushing
16      that placard out?
17           A    Yes.
18           Q    Thank you, officer.
19      THE COURT:  Okay.  Thank you,
20 Mr. Devlaming.  Mr. Johnson, redirect?
21            REDIRECT EXAMINATION
22      BY MR. JOHNSON:
23           Q    Okay.  When Mr. Howd was struck with this
24      board -- I understand it's a foam core board with
25      hard exterior?  Is that --

        page 91

 1           A    Yeah, it's like poster board except it has
 2      foam in the middle.
 3           Q    The surface, though, is a hard surface on
 4      the outside?
 5           A    Well --
 6           Q    Relatively hard.
 7           A    Well, like cardboard paper, yeah.
 8           Q    So and then did you see Mr. Minton take a
 9      step toward Mr. Howd when he struck him with the
10      board?
11           A    Yes, he did step towards him.
12           Q    And just for the record, when you were
13      talking about this gentleman, we're talking Mr. Howd
14      H-O-W-D?
15           A    I'm sorry.
16           Q    That's all right.  You both were doing it.
17      We just want to make sure the record is correct.
18      This gentleman sitting right here, Mr. Howd?
19           A    Correct.
20      THE COURT:  Okay, anything else?
21      MR. JOHNSON:  No, Your Honor.
22      THE COURT:  Officer, thank you very
23 much.
24      MR. JOHNSON:  May he be excused, Your
25 Honor?

        page 92

 1      THE COURT:  Yes, you may be.
 2      Call your next witness.
 3      MR. JOHNSON:  Your Honor, I'd like to
 4 call the operator Steve to operate the
 5 machine for another video.
 6      THE COURT:  All right.  There's to
 7 witness to go with this or anything.
 8      MR. JOHNSON:  We have a witness.  If
 9 the counsel wants me to bring the witness
10 who took the video.
11      MR. DENIS DEVLAMING:  Who's that?
12      MR. JOHNSON:  Garrett Blair.
13      (THEREUPON, A DISCUSSION WAS HELD OFF THE RECORD.)
14      MR. DENIS DEVLAMING:  That's all right.
15      MR. JOHNSON:  We said previously
16 furnished this.
17      MR. DENIS DEVLAMING:  Save time.
18      THE COURT:  Okay, thank you very much,
19 Madam Clerk.  This is Exhibit No. 17.
20      MR. JOHNSON:  And return I represent to
21 the Court we're calling this to show
22 harassment on the part of Mr. Minton, the
23 purpose for this.  This film was taken on
24 November 30, 1998.
25      MR. DENIS DEVLAMING:  Where?

        page 93

 1      MR. JOHNSON:  In front of the -- in the
 2 back of the Fort Harrison.
 3      THE COURT:  On November 30th?
 4      MR. JOHNSON:  Yes.
 5      THE COURT:  Well that hasn't happened
 6 yet.
 7      MR. JOHNSON:  '98.
 8      THE COURT:  I was going to say let's
 9 wait until tomorrow and see what happens.
10      MR. JOHNSON:  It'll be a year tomorrow,
11 Judge.
12      THE COURT:  Okay.
13   (THEREUPON, THE VIDEO CLIP WAS SHOWN.)
14      MR. JOHNSON:  Excuse me.  Back it up
15 and turn it down a little bit.
16      THE COURT:  Yeah, please.  There are
17 hearings in all the other judge's chambers.
18      MR. JOHNSON:  And back it up just a
19 little bit so you can hear the entire
20 statement.
21   (THEREUPON, THE VIDEO CLIP WAS SHOWN.)
22      MR. JOHNSON:  Judge, we offer that to
23 show harassment and inciting violence with
24 fighting words referring to his relationship
25 with the man's mother, and also the

        page 94

 1 relationship with the eccliastical head --
 2      MR. DENIS DEVLAMING:  Judge, I'm going
 3 to object.  Excuse me, Mr. Johnson.  I'm
 4 going to object.  I don't think this is the
 5 time for arguments.  This is the time for
 6 presentation of evidence.  If he had a
 7 witness on the stand he wouldn't be able to
 8 do what he's doing to the Court.  I think we
 9 should save that for argument.
10      THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you very
11 much.  I've seen the video you've presented
12 it.  Call your next witness.
13      THEREUPON,
14                           RHEA SMITH,
15      WAS ADDUCED AS A WITNESS HEREIN AND AFTER BEING DULY
16      SWORN ON OATH WAS EXAMINED AND TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS:
17                       DIRECT EXAMINATION
18      BY MR. JOHNSON:
19           Q    State your name, please, ma'am?
20           A    Rhea.
21           Q    Yeah, spell the name, please.
22           A    R-H-E-A.
23           Q    And pronounced Rhea?
24           A    Rhea.
25           Q    Smith?

        page 95

 1           A    Yes.
 2           Q    And do you a connection with the Church of
 3      Scientology?
 4           A    Yes, I do.
 5           Q    And you'll have to speak up so --
 6           A    Oh.  Okay.  I'm sorry.  Yes, I do.
 7           Q    And what is your -- are you on staff with
 8      the Church of Scientology?
 9           A    Yes, I am.
10           Q    How long have you been a staff member of
11      the Church of Scientology?
12           A    Since 1977.
13           Q    And what is your assignment now and for the
14      past several years?
15           A    My current assignment is Internet
16      Monitoring IC, in charge.
17           Q    So what do you do as being the Internet
18      Monitoring IC?
19           A    I monitor the Internet for copyright,
20      trademark infringements primarily.
21           Q    And as a result of your efforts monitoring
22      and downloading copyright violations have there been
23      lawsuits successfully filed to protect the church
24      copyrights?
25           A    Yes, sir, there have.

        page 96

 1           Q    All right.  And in addition to monitoring
 2      for trademark and copyright infringements do you
 3      monitor for anything else that might be of interest
 4      to the Church of Scientology?
 5           A    Yes, I do.
 6           Q    Have you done any monitoring related to
 7      Robert Minton?
 8           A    Yes, sir.
 9           Q    Can you explain to the record -- excuse me.
10      The Court and everyone knows except me about Internet
11      downloading.  How do you know -- if something says
12      Robert Minton, how do we know it's by Robert Minton?
13           A    I'm sorry.  I don't understand.  Could you
14      repeat that, sir?
15           Q    I'm sorry.
16           A    I didn't understand that.  I'm sorry.
17           Q    Well let me first ask about -- what is an
18      Internet posting?
19           A    An Internet posting is a message that a
20      person puts on a newsgroup from their E-mail I.D.
21           Q    Can you describe what a newsgroup is?
22           A    A newsgroup is like a bulletin board system
23      where you can -- in fact, that's where the word
24      "post" came from, an old bulletin board where you
25      post a message on a bulletin board, but now it's

        page 97

 1      electronic so it goes onto a computer and it travels
 2      on computers around the world.
 3           Q    Okay.  Does the author of the posing put
 4      his or her name on the posting newsgroup?
 5           A    Yes, sir.  It comes from their E-mail
 6      identification.  And many times they sign it.
 7           Q    Okay.  I would like to --
 8      MR. JOHNSON:  We don't have another set
 9 of these so the Judge can follow.  Your
10 Honor, could I suggest it might be helpful
11 to the Court to follow these postings?
12      THE COURT:  All right.  Do you have a
13 copy for Mr. Devlaming?  Let him see when
14 you have first.  I don't know if he's seen
15 them.
16      MR. DENIS DEVLAMING:  I glanced at them
17 Judge, but if I could have a second, that
18 would help.
19      THE COURT:  Okay.  Please provide with
20 the other side with a set.
21EREUPON, A DISCUSSION WAS HELD OFF THE RECORD.)
22      THE COURT:  Do you want me to give her
23 mine.
24      MR. JOHNSON:  No, sir.  I want you to
25 read it.  Well let me see.

        page 98

 1      THE COURT:  Let's do this:  Hand these
 2 to her, she can look at them, and then when
 3 she gets through, hand them over to me.
 4      MR. JOHNSON:  All right, sir.  Thank
 5 you.  And I ask the clerk, the first number
 6 is number --
 7      THE CLERK:  First number on those --
 8      THE COURT:  Miss Smith, what's the
 9 number on that yellow card?
10      THE CLERK:  That's No. 3, Your Honor.
11      THE WITNESS:  This is No. 3 is the
12 affidavit.
13      MR. JOHNSON:  I don't think we want to
14 go to the affidavit because you're here live
15 to testify.
16      BY MR. JOHNSON:
17           Q    So let's put the affidavit aside and go to
18      the first posting which says "Loretta Miscavige gets
19      a call" in the upper left-hand corner.
20           A    Right.
21      MR. JOHNSON:  That's No. 3, Miss Clerk?
22      THE WITNESS:  That's No. 4.
23      MR. JOHNSON:  We're not going to use
24 the affidavit because she's going to testify
25 live.  So No. 4. says in the upper left-hand

        page 99

 1 side corner "Loretta Miscavige gets a call.
 2 WHEREUPON, A DISCUSSION WAS HELD OFF THE RECORD.)
 3      BY MR. JOHNSON:
 4           Q    Will you explain to the Court about Exhibit
 5      No. 4, which is entitled "Loretta Miscavige gets a
 6      call"?  How did this happen to be in your hands here
 7      today?
 8           A    Well on a daily basis I check the newsgroup
 9      to see what postings have been made of interest,
10      trademark, copyright infringements, and anything else
11      of interest to the church.
12      THE COURT:  When you say you check news
13 groups what are you talking about?
14      THE WITNESS:  A newsgroup is where a
15 number of people discuss different subjects.
16      THE COURT:  Okay.  I understand all
17 that, and I know what chat rooms are, but I
18 just wondered what area you went to.
19      THE WITNESS:  This one was on what's
20 called Alt Religion Scientology, which is
21 which is about Scientology.
22      THE COURT:  Okay.  That's what I was
23 getting to.
24      BY MR. JOHNSON:
25           Q    What is the title of that newsgroup?

        page 100

 1           A    It's called Alt Religion Scientology.
 2           Q    A-L-T --
 3           A    Uh-huh.
 4           Q    Religion Scientology?
 5           A    Yes.
 6           Q    And that's the newsgroup that you've
 7      learned from your daily checking is used by whom?
 8           A    Copyright, trademark infringements, and
 9      people who have interests in picketing the church,
10      people who --
11           Q    Anti-Scientologists use this newsgroup?
12           A    Yes.
13           Q    So the Court can follow when he gets it
14      back in his hands, where does it say which newsgroup
15      this is?
16           A    It says Newsgroup:  Alt Religion
17      Scientology.
18           Q    Where are you reading?
19           A    About the fourth line -- fifth line down.
20           Q    Okay.  Fifth line down, it says Newsgroup:
21      Alt Religion Scientology?
22           A    Yes.
23           Q    And you've learned that's used by
24      anti-Scientologists to make postings?
25           A    Yes.

        page 101

 1           Q    All right.  Now it says here "from Bob
 2      Minton".  How do you know it's from Bob Minton or did
 3      someone else just put his name in?
 4           A    It's from his E-mail I.D. and he signed it.
 5           Q    Now where do you find Bob Minton's E-mail?
 6           A    From Bob@minton.org, which it's registered
 7      to him and it's signed Bob Minton.
 8           Q    All right.  Is there anything else to
 9      indicate it's sent from him?
10           A    On this, no.
11           Q    So you've got two things:  You've got the
12      E-mail address and you've also got the newsgroup that
13      he frequently uses?
14           A    Right, and he signed this also.
15           Q    And he signed it.  All right.  Could you
16      read then what the last two paragraphs are of that
17      posting -- let me ask one other question.  After you
18      see this on the computer how do you get it in a
19      hardcopy like this?
20           A    You print.  You can just print it out.
21           Q    I hear the word downloading used somewhere.
22      Is that what we're talking about?
23      THE COURT:  For purposes of the record,
24 I'm quasi-computer literate.  I understand
25 about downloading, I know about printing and

        page 102

 1 everything else, and into it bigtime.  In
 2 fact I've even got my Palm Pilot here with
 3 me right in you.  So go ahead with that.
 4      Now wait a minute.  I've got to be fair
 5 with you, too, Paul.  Please, build your
 6 record.  I'm not saying that all appellate
 7 judges are computer literate, but it's your
 8 call.  But I'm pretty much moxie on
 9 computers but go ahead.
10      MR. JOHNSON:  Well, I don't know what
11 the Second DCA knows about computers.
12      THE COURT:  I would assume they're
13 pretty sharp but, go ahead.
14      MR. JOHNSON:  I assume so, too.
15      BY MR. JOHNSON:
16           Q    Read the last two paragraphs of this
17      posting by Bob Minton on -- what date it was posted?
18           A    This one was posted on 11/21, 1999.
19      MR. DENIS DEVLAMING:  Judge, I'm going
20 to enter a time saver objection here.  These
21 will speak for.  I have no objection.  I've
22 shown them to Mr. Minton.  To the one that
23 Mr. Johnson is on now, this document speaks
24 for itself.  Court can read it.  The second
25 document, if he intends to use it, entitled

        page 103

 1 "Message for Loretta" on the top left.  We
 2 will stipulate that that was sent by
 3 Mr. Minton.
 4      MR. JOHNSON:  That's No. 5?
 5      MR. DENIS DEVLAMING:  Well, I don't
 6 have numbers on this.
 7      THE COURT:  Probably is if he's going
 8 in order.
 9      THE CLERK:  It's No. 5.
10      MR. DENIS DEVLAMING:  Okay, 5.  No. 6,
11 same.  Thing we'll stipulate that it's an
12 admission.  Court can read it.
13      MR. JOHNSON:  Can you identify it also?
14      MR. DENIS DEVLAMING:  Yeah, 6, I
15 have -- it says, "Goes to David Miscavige
16 for his September 1999 Laughable
17 Declaration".
18      No. 7, we would stipulate the Judge,
19 could admit it into evidence, and that one
20 says, "Miscavige Will Be Hanged in Effigy".
21 The other two seem to be duplicates.  I
22 don't know whether they're different dates
23 or whether you meant to be duplicates.
24       (THEREUPON, A DISCUSSION WAS HELD OFF THE RECORD.)
25      THE COURT:  Hold on a second.  One at a

        page 104

 1 time.  When you two are talking to each
 2 other your words are bouncing off each other
 3 and we're not hearing you up here.
 4      MR. DENIS DEVLAMING:  I have no
 5 objection to the introduction of the one
 6 that says "Pat" on the front page.  Stapled
 7 to it is a photograph.
 8      MR. JOHNSON:  May I ask you --
 9      THE CLERK:  That's Exhibit No. 8.
10      MR. JOHNSON:  May I ask counsel if he
11 would agree that's a pictures of David
12 Miscavige on the second page?
13      MR. DENIS DEVLAMING:  If that's who it
14 is.
15      MR. JOHNSON:  I can ask this witness.
16      BY MR. JOHNSON:
17           Q    Do you know David Miscavige?
18           A    Yes, sir.
19           Q    There's a -- whose picture -- on this
20      two-page posting, it talks of "Pat" on the first
21      page, whose picture, the head of whose picture is on
22      the second page?
23           A    That's Mr. Miscavige.
24           Q    David Miscavige?
25           A    Yes, sir.

        page 105

 1           Q    Go ahead, please.
 2      MR. DENIS DEVLAMING:  And the next one
 3 would, Madam Clerk, 9?
 4      THE CLERK:  Another affidavit of Rhea
 5 Smith, one-page document.
 6      MR. DENIS DEVLAMING:  You don't need to
 7 put that in.
 8      MR. JOHNSON:  I don't need to because
 9 she's here.
10      MR. DENIS DEVLAMING:  No. 11?
11      THE CLERK:  No. 10 is three pages.  It
12 starts out with "Exhibit D an Internet
13 message of 12/15 RE: Samurai Minton".
14      MR. JOHNSON:  And the first page is
15 Mr. Minton with a Samurai sword.
16      MR. DENIS DEVLAMING:  What was the
17 first?
18      MR. JOHNSON:  Do you agree to that one?
19      MR. DENIS DEVLAMING:  Yes, the only
20 thing on that one, Judge, is we disagree I
21 don't know if that's in front of you, Your
22 Honor, or not.  It's a picket of Mr. Minton.
23 The "Bob Minton's Plan For Scientologists"
24 was put on by another.  He did not do that.
25 So with that understanding, we have no

        page 106

 1 objection to this coming in.
 2      MR. JOHNSON:  I understand his point,
 3 Your Honor.
 4      THE COURT:  Okay.
 5      MR. DENIS DEVLAMING:  And lastly,
 6 Judge, I have one -- no.
 7      MR. JOHNSON:  I think the last one is
 8 the affidavit of Rhea Smith.
 9      THE CLERK:  Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 11
10 is Internet posting of 11/8 of the Lisa
11 McPherson Trust about a race.  That's No.
12 11.
13      THE COURT REPORTER:  Judge, can I
14 assume they're off the record?
15      THE COURT:  Yeah, if you two don't talk
16 up, she's assuming you're off the record.
17      MR. JOHNSON:  Yeah, we are off the
18 record.
19      THE COURT:  All right.  We're off the
20 record for a minute.
21       (THEREUPON, A DISCUSSION WAS HELD OFF THE RECORD.)
22      THE COURT:  On the record just a
23 moment.  Mr. Johnson and Mr. Devlaming, I
24 have an affidavit of Rhea Smith.  That's
25 Exhibit No. 9.  Is that the one you all are

        page 107

 1 talking about?
 2      MR. DENIS DEVLAMING:  Yes.
 3      MR. JOHNSON:  Second page, Your Honor.
 4 Does it say "IRC Log, Wednesday November the
 5 3rd"?
 6      THE COURT:  No.  Yeah, the third page
 7 does.
 8      MR. JOHNSON:  Oh, okay.
 9      THE COURT:  Third page.
10      MR. JOHNSON:  Judge, since she's here
11 in person we can remove the affidavit and
12 not offer that.
13      THE COURT:  You want me to do that?
14      MR. JOHNSON:  Yes, sir.
15      THE COURT:  Madam Clerk?
16      THE CLERK:  Yes, sir, I'll take care of
17 it.
18      THE COURT:  Now what do you want to do
19 with these, you want to mark them for I.D.
20 purposes only or take them back in your own
21 possession?
22      MR. JOHNSON:  The affidavits, I'll take
23 back, Judge.
24       (THEREUPON, A DISCUSSION WAS HELD OFF THE RECORD.)
25      MR. DENIS DEVLAMING:  Well, Judge, if

        page 108

 1 that's all about downloading, I guess I have
 2 no problem.  However, my client tells me
 3 that where it says "Minton" is not always
 4 his entry.  So on that basis of
 5 authenticity, I object.  I don't have any
 6 objection that she downloaded it, but I have
 7 objection to its authenticity.
 8      THE COURT:  Maybe he didn't write it.
 9      MR. DENIS DEVLAMING:  Yeah.  When you
10 see Minton on the paper --
11      THE COURT:  Which is noted in bold
12 here.
13      MR. DENIS DEVLAMING:  Right.  When you
14 see that, not all of those are what he typed
15 in.
16      MR. JOHNSON:  I'll ask her to
17 authenticate it, Judge, if I may go back on
18 the record.
19      THE COURT:  On the record.
20      BY MR. JOHNSON:
21           Q    Miss Smith, do you see the document marked
22      in the upper left-hand side, "IRC Log Wednesday
23      November 3rd".
24           A    Yes.
25           Q    Tell me what that is and how you -- why you

        page 109

 1      printed it out?
 2           A    This is called a chat room where a number
 3      of people can log in at one time and have what's
 4      called realtime conversations where you type on your
 5      computer and it's actually in this chat room.  And
 6      this is part of a log of one of those sessions.
 7           Q    How do you know that Bob Minton had any
 8      part of it?
 9           A    Well Mr. Minton had logged in here.  And
10      according to his E-mail I.D. that was him when he
11      logged in.
12           Q    Say that again, please.  He logged in
13      where?
14           A    He had logged in before where you see the
15      "Minton AFK", Minton AFK means, Minton away for now.
16      Or Minton -- yeah.  Basically person's not at their
17      keyboard, away from keyboard actually.  So they're
18      not really paying attention.
19                Then when he came in and said now as
20      Minton, generally that means a person is back in the
21      conversation.  And then the next one down he says
22      "rehi", which is a way of saying hello.
23           Q    And was this from the group that was being
24      used from your personal knowledge by Minton on other
25      occasions?

        page 110

 1           A    Yes.  It's a chat room called
 2      "Scientology".
 3           Q    Okay.
 4      MR. JOHNSON:  I offer that in evidence,
 5 Your Honor.
 6      MR. DENIS DEVLAMING:  Same objection.
 7      THE COURT:  I'll allow it in with the
 8 note that where it says "Minton" that I'm
 9 not going to automatically assume that this
10 was by this defendant.
11      MR. JOHNSON:  All right, Your Honor.
12 Then I then offer in evidence all of these
13 exhibits since we have identified and
14 counsel has commented on it.
15      BY MR. JOHNSON:
16           Q    And Miss Smith will you hand them to the
17      Judge?  That completes that?
18           A    Yes.
19      THE COURT:  I've got 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8,
20 10, and here's 9.  Were you attorneys
21 listening to me?  I read into the record
22 what I have, okay?  I think I've got 3
23 through 9.  Now the witness tells me she's
24 sitting over here with another whole wad of
25 them.  So what -- all right.  I have through

        page 111

 1 10.  Now what number do you have?  11?
 2      THE WITNESS:  I have 11, 12, 13, 14,
 3 15, 16.
 4      THE COURT:  She's got 11 through 16
 5 over there.  I don't know anything about
 6 those.
 7      MR. DOUGLAS DEVLAMING:  Judge, our
 8 copies aren't marked.  I think we need to
 9 get a marking from --
10      THE COURT:  Okay.  Here's what I'm
11 going to do.  Folks, you all take a look at
12 what I have here, mark your copies and
13 everything.  I'll be back in 5 to 10
14 minutes.
15      THE BAILIFF:  All rise.
16  (THEREUPON, A BRIEF RECESS WAS TAKEN.)
17      THE COURT:  All right.  Did we get the
18 paperwork sorted out.
19      MR. JOHNSON:  Judge, I think we are.
20 We have admitted into evidence of the
21 postings, 4 through